Oh for Christ’s sake you can lay off the martyr shit. The U.S., Britain and Canada aren’t busy blaming Israel. A huge chunk of the middle east only pays lip service to “blaming” them. Unlike other countries in the region, they are shelling the shit out of a civilian population without even a whisper that maybe we should use military power to stop them. Poor poor Israel has to carry on with all this impotent handwringing. Sheesh.
Are you saying that you think the US, the UK, and Canada should be using “military power” to force Israel to stop bombing Gaza?
If so, how far does this go?
Should the US and the UK have used military force against fellow NATO ally Turkey when they invaded the Kurdish region of Norther Iraq a few years ago?
Should we now use “military power” against Turkey to make them end the occupation of Northern Cyprus and evacuate the Turkish settlers from there as well.
Perhaps I’m wrong, but I can’t remember a single thread on SDMB criticizing Turkey’s invasion, occupation, ethnically cleansing and settling of Northern Cyprus.
Should we use military power against Syria in their civil war? Should we have used military power to aid Libyan rebels? Should we make strikes to stop Iran’s nuclear program? Because all those were suggested d and/or done. My point was a simple one. There is not a whisper of a hint that we should do that against Israel. So “everyone” can fucking “blame” them to kingdom come. They have carte Blanche. So don’t cry about the handwringing.
There’s not a whisper of a hint that the West should do something that you’re whispering and hinting they should do?
I sure hope that if my country gets involved in this mess (which I sincerely hope we don’t) that it’s at least on the right side.
Probably not; a moderate faction is probably not as well-armed.
I wasn’t here at the time, but I would have spoken in condemnation.
Funnily enough support for moderate groups in Palestine gets even slimmer when Israel kills a thousand civilians. You’ll be amazed to hear that for some reason, Palestinians are probably minded to believe that Hamas is right, and Israel is out to get them.
Israel faces no credible threat. They could take the moral high ground here, show restraint, and stop replying to ineffectual attempts with an airstrike and land campaign that will inevitably result in civilian deaths.
Israel is a democracy. In fact, it is a parliamentary democracy, so the government can fall any time. Any Israeli government that adopted the policy of “let them kill/injure us, we will not respond” will fall within days of doing so.
Which has nothing to do with the morality of the situation.
It is not “moral” for a government to allow its citizens to get killed or injured with impunity.
OK, that makes more sense. It seems clear that there was arab immigration into Palestine but all the numbers (even by some folks who seem pretty pro-Israel) seem to peg the number at below 50% of the population being immigrants.
The Smoking Gun: Arab Immigration into Palestine, 1922-1931 - Middle East Forum (I used the search term immigra and I saw stuff like 10% immigration between 1922 and 1931).
The immigrant Jewish population in 1948 was much much higher.
Israel’s response has not stopped the threat. Hamas stepped up their ineffectual rocket strikes in response, and still the actual risk to Israel’s civilians is negligible.
But their response has killed a thousand civilians, and they knew well what they were doing.
In short, they have increased the risk to their own civilians (but still to a point that barely registers, such is the gulf in strengths between Hamas and Israel) with a course of action that has killed over a thousand civilians. That is immoral.
Taking the high ground, accepting a tiny risk to yourself rather than killing the innocent, is moral.
Not yet. But the rocket arsenal is reduced 60% to 70% so far, the tunnels are being destroyed and the rocket manufacturers are being blown up. And it’s not over yet. So don’t despair - the threat is being eliminated.
“The precise magnitude of Arab immigration into and within Palestine is, as Bachi noted, unknown. Lack of completeness in Ottoman registration lists and British Mandatory censuses, and the immeasurable illegal, unreported, and undetected immigration during both periods make any estimate a bold venture into creative analysis. In most cases, those venturing into the realm of Palestinian demography—or other demographic analyses based on very crude data—acknowledge its limitations and the tentativeness of the conclusions that may be drawn.”
So - no “pegging” the number.
The only threat that really exists is not posed by Hamas rockets, and as far as I can see it has not reduced at all for those who are actually being killed.
Ok, I’ll bite.
Please give me your definition of what a Palestinian group would have to be to be considered “moderate” and also list some “moderate” Palestinian groups that you suggest have been hurt by the recent measures of the Israeli government?
Thanks in advance.
I’d suggest a non-militant group which does not call for an end to Israel (although opposition to further expansion would be a perfectly valid opinion) would be moderate. The Palestinian People’s Party, for example.
And I’d imagine any group with a moderate stance will see decreased support after the current bombing campaign.
Oh, and can I just pre-emptively note that I’m moving house today, so will probably not be back online for 24 hours to respond to any replies/questions/rebuttals.
Could your delicate sensibilities deal with economic sanctions? Just kidding. No one has even whispered a hint of that either. My point wasn’t that we should get involved militarily. Just pointing out that Israel is not being put under any meaningful pressure to stop so don’t cry about “everyone blaming” them.
Whereas Hamas, of course, are not shelling the shit out of anyone. Their rockets are merely designed as firework displays to amuse the children. Israel has no right at all to use force to prevent such harmless fun.
Your evident bias is clearly ingrained. Were you perhaps bitten by an Israeli as a child?