Quite correct. I do not have a precise number for the number of civilians have died. I can give you estimate from 600 - 1000, according to which news service I look at. I am basing the lower from your website, but must admit I’m extrapolating because they don’t actually give numbers, and their latest figures are 4 days ago.
Once more, I offer to go with your figures. Please advise.
Sure thing. World War Two.
German soldiers killed: 4.3 million (lowest figure on Wikipedia). Civilians killed: 3.5 million (highest figure on Wikipedia).
So there you go, giving you the very best ratio I can from WW2, the ratio was lower than 1 civilian to 1 combatant. Not sure how to define “innocent civilians”, but then again I doubt you do either.
Next round of sophistry please.
Because it’s war, and that’s how war’s been fought for the past century. The IDF is fighting a house-to-house battle against a trained enemy, entrenched in friendly terrain, and it hasn’t been a cakewalk, either - over 50 Israeli soldiers have been killed so far, and hundreds more have been wounded, in some of the fiercest combat the Israeli army has seen in literally decades. How could there *not *be civilian casualties? It’s not all hyper-intelligent GPS-guided “surgical” missiles, you know (which are overrated anyway). Most of what a modern army uses today is still big, dumb bombs and rockets. It’s nasty, but the troops have to stay alive to finish the job.
As to whether it will create a new generation of Palestinians who hate Israel… yeah, it probably will. That’s something we have to take into account. Still, I’m sorry to say that it’s really hard to imagine the Palestinians hating us even more than they hate us now, so after a certain point it’s just a matter of diminishing returns. Kill them, don’t kill them, they’ll still hate us for taking their land.
(Oh, and the Israeli intelligence establishment has been keeping close track of ISIS and other “global jihad” elements - as they’re called here - in Gaza; why do you think many Israelis object to taking down Hamas? We know they could be replaced by something worse. That’s why, IMHO, they need to be beaten badly enough to start fighting, but not so badly that they’ll lose control of the Strip,at least for the meantime.)
Israel is killing hundreds of civilians in Palestine because it’s war, and that’s how it’s been for a hundred years?
And sorry to ask again, but is there a death counter that the “Israel is just defending itself” camp would be happy to use? Because let’s be honest, I’m not really going to need to quibble over numbers am I, I just have to wait.
Do you know a better way to fight a war?
(And if you say “Yes - by not fighting one”, I’m going to say “Tell that to Hamas”. I just want to keep things brief, as it’s way past my bedtime).
Edit:
Yeah - 54 Israeli dead. That’s our counter.
No, you’re not getting the number from “news services”. You’re getting the number from Hamas. The “news services” report to you what Hamas tells them. As you can imagine, Hamas is interested in having as many civilian casualties vs combatant casualties as possible.
Let’s look at previous Gaza conflict. Casualties of the Gaza War - Wikipedia
1166 total dead
709 combatants
Now, as I said in my other post, can you show me another war that you consider “justified” where combatant to civilian ratio is higher than this one.
From what source did you get your number of civilian casualties? Hamas? CNN, which reported the numbers given to them by Hamas? Reuters, which reported the numbers given to them by Hamas? Hamas?
Are there any civilian casualties among the Palestinians? Are any of them trying to stop the launching of vengeance weapons into Israel? Had any of these civilian casualties been involved in storing, carrying, setting up, aiming, or launching vengeance weapons into Israel the day/week/month/year before they were killed?
Actually, yesterday, in Shajaiya, some Palestinians came out to protest against the war, and Hamas rounded twenty of them up and shot them in the street. Wonder if those twenty will be included in the “innocent civilians killed by Israel” number.
You’re not fighting a war. War implies vaguely comparable sides. Hamas could let off every rocket it has tomorrow, and Israel would be hardly scratched. Whereas, as the last few days has made incredibly clear, Israel can rip the entire Palestine apart with losses between hundred or thousands. You outgun them so entirely it’s like Tyson fighting a toddler.
You’re engaged in a strategic action, at best. I have to ask from a strategic point of view if killing how ever many hundred civilians really serves your long term objectives.
And as for “54 Israeli dead. That’s our counter”. Are you really trying to say you don’t count civilian deaths for Palestinians?
I wonder how Gary Kumquat will classify them?
So what exactly should Israel do? Let’s be straightforward.
Absorb rocket attacks (with Iron Dome), refrain from retaliation, and go about life like nothing’s happening?
Not really comparable, since more than half of that war was fought outside of Germany, with no German civilians in danger. But you know what - ok. So “lower than 1 to 1” is your criteria?
Because honestly, anything I’ve said suggests I would view people killed by Hamas as victims of Israeli action.
Try harder, please.
Question is, how would you know? Your news sources get their numbers from Hamas and they definitely won’t tell you.
I’m not sure what could possibly give you that ridiculous idea. Tyson fighting a toddler is still a fight, just a very one sided one.
You know, just because you disagree with him there’s no need to imply he’s distorting obvious facts. But i guess I shouldn’t expect much from a guy who keeps saying “vengeance rockets”.
If I were to be ridiculously callous the most relevant thing I could compare this to is not a war, but a PR campaign on a worldwide stage, and Israel are losing it by playing Hamas at their own game.
Take the moral high ground, track every rocket attack from Gaza and broadcast it, but forego retaliation strikes stating loss of innocent civilian life is unacceptable. Go for heart and mind campaigns such as welfare and health programs. In short, completely undermine the fundamental premise of Hamas, that Israel is an evil threat to the people of Palestine that must be resisted.
A quick check shows I’ve now asked you four times for a source you will accept as reasonable, but you keep refusing to give one.
Once more then. You keep rejecting any figures I give as Hamas sourced. So please, which death counter do you suggest. And I must insist, one with numbers rather than images of graphs
While the action is going on, there is no source that can give you figures. After, IDF is pretty good at it. I gave you the figures from that source from the previous engagement. The number of combatants killed that the IDF gave then was in fact later confirmed by the Hamas spokesman.