airstrikes on Gaza

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@Fenris

Yeah, pretty much.

You get a crappy gun with terrible aim and start shooting at my family, even if you’ll only hit them with dumb luck, I’m morally* in the right to do whatever it takes to stop you. A face shot, running you over with a car, whatever.

The way to stop retaliations is…get this…to stop attacking in the first place. I get that’s a hard concept, but it’s not worth the (I hope) faux “Gosh, wow” amazement in your post.

*Although maybe not legally, depending on where I am.

So are you allowed to throw a hand grenade at me even though I am surrounded by people just walking by or hiding from me?

I think Israel is justified in killing as many members of Al-Qassam Brigades - Wikipedia and any that are providing them with material aid or comfort. But there are limits to what you are allowed to do to defend yourself.

It may be that we don’t disagree on this and my post is just a clarification of your position, but I have seen internet rants putting all Palestinians in the same boat as the guys firing the rockets. For example in this thread, I have seen Palestinians=Hamas more than a few times.

[The_Other_Waldo_Pepper]

@Damuri_Ajashi

So are you allowed to throw a hand grenade at me even though I am surrounded by people just walking by or hiding from me?

Are you still shooting at me and mine in this hypothetical?

[XT]

[QUOTE=Damuri Ajashi]
So are you allowed to throw a hand grenade at me even though I am surrounded by people just walking by or hiding from me?
[/QUOTE]

@The_Other_Waldo_Pepper

Are you still shooting at me and mine in this hypothetical?

Well, let’s say that Hamas represents the gun men. They are surrounded by a crowd of people. Some of them innocent victims, some of them are in the gang, and some of them just support the gang and what they are doing. The gun men are firing at the large extended family of the police but they are terrible shots. So, whenever the gun men shoot, the police shoot back (instead of ACTUALLY throwing hand grenades), and unfortunately people in the crowd get hit.

Er…this analogy is getting a bit wooly (and this is a feature, not a bug). Instead of all of the above, let’s say you built a large wooden badger instead…

[Malthus]

@Damuri_Ajashi

Don’t these things usually involve a big unification war and some ethnic cleansing?

Are those sort of things as acceptable today as they were in the past?

Not necessarily.

What do you mean by “the past”? The creation of Israel occurred at about the same time as many countries in Europe got their present borders, India/Pakistan, not to mention before decolonization in much of the 3rd world (which created scads of ethno-nationalist states).

The notion that the creation of Israel was a unique and uniquely modern event never ceases to puzzle me.

[Malthus]

@Damuri_Ajashi

So are you allowed to throw a hand grenade at me even though I am surrounded by people just walking by or hiding from me?

I think Israel is justified in killing as many members of Al-Qassam Brigades - Wikipedia and any that are providing them with material aid or comfort. But there are limits to what you are allowed to do to defend yourself.

It may be that we don’t disagree on this and my post is just a clarification of your position, but I have seen internet rants putting all Palestinians in the same boat as the guys firing the rockets. For example in this thread, I have seen Palestinians=Hamas more than a few times.

I agree that there are limits. Just War theory states that the risks to civilians must be proportional to the legitimate military objectives being pursued.

Israel would not be justifed if it took a WW2 approach to Hamas, and simply bombed Gaza flat. To its credit, it isn’t doing that.

[Ibn_Warraq]

@Damuri_Ajashi

Thats a silly comparison. Pakistanis don’t want the right to move back to india or vice versa. AFAICT, they are fighting about regions of India that are majority Mulsim but were ruled by Hindu monarchs at the time the borders were drawn (and vice versa).

You do realize that Pakistan’s War of Independence produced vastly, vastly more Hindu and Muslim refugees than Israel’s War for Independence, right?

[Terr]

@Damuri_Ajashi

If children includes boys under the age of 19 then aren’t both sides saying it?

Again - can you get an independent confirmation of those numbers that does not rely on Hamas reporting?

[Ibn_Warraq]

@Gary_Kumquat

I like the people of Israel a lot. I could explain my personal reasons for this, but there’s no point. You have to paint me as being biased, because that’s the only way to support your narrative, so any anything I give describing a personal connection to either the Jewish faith or the people of Israel, you will dismiss as a lie.

Once again, since you brought it up, I’d like to hear why you like the people of Israel a lot and what your “personal connection” is to them.

Don’t worry, I won’t accuse you of lying.

Thanks.

[Trinopus]

@Damuri_Ajashi

I thought it was pretty clear I was talking about Jewish settlers in Palestinian territory. And my numbers are dated, its over 500,000 now. Israeli settlement - Wikipedia

It was in response to a post about the Israeli withdrawal from Gaza. You seem to have conflated the two regions.

Israel did withdraw fully from Gaza, but that failed to lead to peace in that region.

(In contrast, Israel’s withdrawal from Sinai was part of the peace treaty with Egypt.)

[Trinopus]

@Damuri_Ajashi

So are you allowed to throw a hand grenade at me even though I am surrounded by people just walking by or hiding from me? . . .

In Los Angeles, a man stood in a window with a baby in one arm…and a gun in his other hand. He shot at police officers. They shot back. The baby was killed.

By law, the man is responsible for the death of the child. He is the murderer, not the policeman.

[BrainGlutton]

Israeli writer Yochanan Gordon: “When Genocide Is Permissible.” Posted on the Times of Israel website, which shortly took it down, but you can still read the article at the latter link. It’s not clear whether he’s advocating genocide on all Palestinians or all Gazans or just members of Hamas – in fact, he seems to blur the distinction.

[Martin_Hyde]

@Trinopus

In Los Angeles, a man stood in a window with a baby in one arm…and a gun in his other hand. He shot at police officers. They shot back. The baby was killed.

By law, the man is responsible for the death of the child. He is the murderer, not the policeman.

Plus in the grenade example you’re acting out of proportion and unnecessarily, because a rifle is far more accurate than a grenade in any case and against a single target at distance has a greater likelihood of being effective.

Doesn’t really compare to persons launching high explosive projectiles that could conceivably kill many people being targeted even though targeting them may kill some civilians on the other side.

[doorhinge]

@XT

…Er…this analogy is getting a bit wooly (and this is a feature, not a bug). Instead of all of the above, let’s say you built a large wooden badger instead…

What a coincidence, I used to dance professionally under the name Large Wooden Badger.

(just kidding. sorry. carry on. )

[Grumman]

@Gary_Kumquat

That quote is a direct c&p and I haven’t “butchered” anything for effect.

It’s a direct, c&p excerpt of the first article that came up when I searched for the supposed source of Terr’s figures for Hamas fatalities. I even bloody said that:

“Of course we’re big fan of primary sources, right? So I went to Al-Hayat, to have a look, and did a search on Fathi Hammad.”

It’s put there purely because Terr has quoted two websites that both refer to another website, and short of someone with decent arabic doing a search on the supposed source it’s impossible to know what was said or even if the primary article is there at all.

1. Your quote does not even mention Israel. If you were trying to be coherent but still refused to just post the damn English translation, you should have at least chosen a sentence that says what incident they are condemning.
2. It’s not the primary source. The White House is the primary source, and you could have made things a lot easier by not taking a single sentence in a foreign language out of context and pretending that is an argument.
3. Your quote supports Terr. The newspaper correctly stated that the White House said X. Whether or not the White House was correct to say X is irrelevant - the newspaper was correctly reporting the facts.

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@The_Other_Waldo_Pepper

Are you still shooting at me and mine in this hypothetical?

Yes. But you have also have a gun.

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@Ibn_Warraq

You do realize that Pakistan’s War of Independence produced vastly, vastly more Hindu and Muslim refugees than Israel’s War for Independence, right?

Yes. So? How is that relevant to the point being made?

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@Terr

Again - can you get an independent confirmation of those numbers that does not rely on Hamas reporting?

Who else is counting?

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@Trinopus

In Los Angeles, a man stood in a window with a baby in one arm…and a gun in his other hand. He shot at police officers. They shot back. The baby was killed.

By law, the man is responsible for the death of the child. He is the murderer, not the policeman.

You can’t use analogies between crime and war, particularly not legal constructs like felony murder. You might as well argue that America should balance its budget like your family does. One has nothing to do with the other.

There is no criminal here. So there is no “felony murder” here either.

[Damuri_Ajashi]

@Trinopus

It was in response to a post about the Israeli withdrawal from Gaza. You seem to have conflated the two regions.

Israel did withdraw fully from Gaza, but that failed to lead to peace in that region.

(In contrast, Israel’s withdrawal from Sinai was part of the peace treaty with Egypt.)

Wait, are you saying that Israel deserved peace with Gazans because they pulled out of Gaza (for their own purposes) despite the fact that it represented a tiny fraction of the settlements on Palestinian land?

[Mosier]

@Damuri_Ajashi

Wait, are you saying that Israel deserved peace with Gazans because they pulled out of Gaza (for their own purposes) despite the fact that it represented a tiny fraction of the settlements on Palestinian land?

Are you suggesting that Hamas has attacked Israel in response to Jewish settlements in the West Bank?