CBC NEWS ANCHOR: The Israeli government has said repeatedly that Hamas is using human shields, they are using UN schools, hospitals – not only, by the way, to store weapons – I know 3 UN-run schools have been found with munitions stored in them, as weapons depots – but in the UN’s experience, **is Hamas or militant groups, Islamic Jihad, are they launching rockets nearby these shelters, these UN schools? Are they using it essentially as a shelter?
JOHN GING: Yes, the armed groups are firing their rockets into Israel from the vicinity of UN facilities and residential areas, absolutely.**
Not really as the use of “surrounding themselves with children” hardly paints an accurate picture and is simply used to reprehensively justify the indiscriminate killing of the IDF.
As I pointed out it was IDF policy (for some units) to literally use Palestinian civilians and in particular children as human shields - i.e. to force them to walk infront of armed soldiers or to make them enter houses that might be booby trapped. This was outlawed by the Israeli Supreme Court a few years ago, but it has been documented to happen several times since. Where does that leave the IDF?
The IDF is not “indiscriminately” killing civilians in Gaza. At worst, Israel is guilty of not taking enough precautions to protect civilians. There is an ocean of hyperbole between that, and “indiscriminate killing”.
I haven’t heard of this happening, but if it’s true then those units are guilty of war crimes, and the people who made those decisions ought to be tried.
Was this practice widespread? Was it a standard strategy, or was it something rogue commanders did? Was anyone in the IDF ever punished for using these tactics? I would appreciate if you can provide a cite. The only ones I could find are at least ten years old.
I did find an article about a case where Israeli soldiers ordered a civilian to deliver an ultimatum of surrender to a man they wanted to arrest. The civilian was then murdered by Palestinian gunmen accusing him of “collaboration” while he was delivering the message. I would agree that the IDF shouldn’t use this strategy, and civilians should never be ordered to do any type of military task. However, I think it falls short of deserving the term “human shield.”
Neither side has much incentive to change their behavior. Palestine isn’t deterred by getting its ass kicked. Israel can do whatever, they won’t lose the support of the U.S., or get attacked by a UN coalition, or have crushing sanctions placed on them. You could try to criticize their strategy and say they’re breeding future terrorists. But they’ll get bombed in 10-15 years all the same. The Palestinian’s attacks are the least impressive genocide attempt of all time, so it’s not like they hold any cards. All told, it’s a nice status quo. I’m sure someone somewhere is making serious bank. Send it into overtime!
I was responding to rock party’s point that if an enemy vows your annihilation, you should do the same (note that I actually quoted him/her). Not saying that what Israel is doing constitutes genocide (yet).
There’s a difference though from accidentally killing children you didn’t know were there, and knowingly bombing a school because you suspect Hamas soldiers are sheltering there.
Except that never happened. For example, the latest incident: Israel targeted (and killed) two terrorists on a motorbike. At the moment they were hit they happened to be passing a UNRWA school, so some people in the school were killed as well. Now - UN already admitted that Hamas shoots rockets from immediate vicinity of schools, using them as a shelter. So when the terrorists get hit, in that immediate vicinity - don’t complain.
I’m suggesting that Israel’s pulling 8000 settlers (out of over 400,000 settlers in Palestinain land (for their own reasons) is vastly overplayed by the zionists.
Really? There was quid pro quo? Hamas agreed to peace if Israel withdrew from Gaza? Did the PA agree to peace if they withdrew from Gaza? Or was this a UNILATERAL withdrawal?
The first time Hamas fired a rocket at Israel, they did ignore it. The second as well, and the third. In fact, they ignored the first 715 rockets!
There’s only one thing which will stop Hamas from using human shields (a strategy they have praised as being "very effective), and that is to lay 100% of the blame on Hamas’s door. Y’know, exactly like we would do if Hamas were shelling us.
So, the pullout was not quid pro quo for anything and yet you say there was some sort of agreement for withdrawal. An agreement that Hamas broke when they got elected.
So how the fuck did they break an agreement that they were not a part of and what agreement are you talking about?
I keep hearing the Israel apologists talk about how the withdrawal was unilateral (as if it was some sort of humanitarian act of charity that everyone needs to give Israel moral benny points for). And now it was a quid pro quo consideration for an agreement that Hamas broke? Well, which was it? Was it unilateral or was it in consideration for an agreement?
So Israel knowingly bombed close enough to a school to cause dozens of fatalities there. And if the terrorists had been in the school, they would have just bombed it directly.
So other that conceding exactly what I was just saying, what is your point?
That would be like destroying a building full of hostages and saying all the deaths are on the head of the hostage-taker. That’s certainly a convenient way of looking at things morally, but a way that few people would relate to.