According to wjla here in Montgomery (this morning on their website) only 150 supporters marched to the Statehouse in support of ‘the rock’.
A measely 150 supporters. Do y’all even realize that there is a Church on every street corner here, and at least a few in between?
Apparently MOST people in Alabama have a good sense of right/wrong. Even the Christians.
Apparently Alabama is going through an evolution. Glad I’m here to witness it.
Hello,
I live in Montgomery, Alabama, and am right in the middle of this. I happen to agree with Judge Moore, although I am not protesting.
To me, this is what it all boils down to: In order to see the monument, you have to go to the building and search for it. In other words, it’s not like it is out in a public area.
If it offends you, DON’T GO THERE. PERIOD!!!
Also remember, the monument was completely paid for by private donations, not tax dollars.
Peace Lady (but please don’t mistake me for a democrat, I am not).
If there must be a separation of religion and state well let’s not stop in Alabama. We next need to eliminate these graven images in our capitol as well.
http://www.aoc.gov/cc/art/rotunda/apotheosis/apotheosis.htm
Aparently George Washington is God or at least he is portayed to be here.
Or how about this instance of Religion:
http://www.aoc.gov/cc/art/rotunda/baptism_pocahontas.htm
And this:
http://www.aoc.gov/cc/art/rotunda/embarkation_pilgrims.htm
And oh don’t forget poor Chris Columbus and his Christian background:
http://www.aoc.gov/cc/art/coldoors/columbus_doors.htm
Let’s not forget about the anti Greek god movement they need to get rid of these too:
http://www.aoc.gov/cc/art/war_and_peace.htm
I’m sorry but the same logic can be applied here:
http://www.aoc.gov/cc/art/pediments/apoth_hse_ctr.htm
Oh wait a minute aren’t angels considered Judaic/Christian images?
http://www.aoc.gov/cc/art/fame_and_peace.htm
Wait a minute here Washington took his oath on a Bible? How Christian is that?
http://www.aoc.gov/cc/art/cox_corr/g_exp/washingtons_inauguration.htm
Lets not forget about Roman gods here either:
http://www.aoc.gov/cc/grounds/art_arch/peace_4.htm
So we can represent the signs of the Zodiac but not any Christian concepts?
http://www.aoc.gov/cc/art/car_of_history.htm
You see like Tuckerfan said people seem to keep mucking it up. Separation of church and state is a fantasy of the uninformed. Every image associated with our government buildings can trace something back to religion. If you look hard enough you will find someone who will be offended by some image in our national history based on their belief system.
If I were an archeologist visting the ruins of our government buildings some thousands of years in the future finding the statuary around the capitol would leave me to believe that we as a people worshiped the same gods as did the Greek and Roman cultures. So the state IS the religion in this sense. Try looking at the aformentioned images as someone from another society, planet er. you pick. Based on your sole observations wouldn’t you agree that our government has created its own religion?
This is nothing but a Publicity Stunt to get a God Fearin’ good ol’ boy elected into office. They didn’t even have to pay for a brass band or the picnic lunch.
Feel sorry for yourself, then. The Declaration of Independence has no force of law in the United States. The Constitution does. And the Constitution specifically deletes God from government. No religious tests for public office, no requirement that oaths be sworn (affirmations are allowed), no state respect for religion and no state prohibition on the free exercise of religion. Try reading and quoting from the actual law next time.
It is not a crime to “lie” per se; it can be a crime to lie under certain circumstances. No one is going to jail for telling his wife that dress doesn’t make her butt look big.
It is not universally a crime to commit adultery, and in light of SCOTUS’ decision in Lawrence v Texas adultery prosecutions are probably just as illegal as sodomy prosecutions.
It is not a crime to worship idols, have other gods besides Jehovah or whatever name he’s going by these days, dishonor your parents, fail to keep the Sabbath or covet your neighbor’s wife and property. More of the commandments are not law than are, and should anyone try to enact those which are not law into law the courts would strike them down.
The monument was moved this morning, although it’s not clear yet where it’s being placed.
I could be mistaken, but I believe that both Jesus (upon whom the entire Christian belief system is founded) and Paul (who did more to spread the belief system than anyone else) referenced slaves and slave-owners without implying the practice was “reprehensible.”
My lovely wife, Aries28, posted about this very thing yesterday (although it might have been in a different thread). According to a good friend of hers, the owner of the company who made the monument had no idea why he was making it. (Yet another instance of Judge Moore being more than a bit shady with the whole production.) He could remove it, but he doesn’t want to – due to the negative publicity that would generate. In other words, yes, he’s afraid. He doesn’t think it should be there. And apparently, he is right to be worried about his business:
From the story here.
You’d be right about this – if those figures were for RELIGIOUS PURPOSES. They’re not. I wouldn’t have a beef with the placement of the Ten Commandments in the judicial building if it was used as a historical legal display, along with information on, say, the Code of Hammurabi and other ancient legal documents or systems. But Moore has specifically stated that the monument is a religious display. I haven’t heard anyone else claim the stars on the U.S. flag are a religious homage to Zoroaster.
No one is saying Moore can’t have this monument displayed someplace else in the building. Again from the story linked earlier:
And this just made me laugh:
Oh, but as a resident of Shreveport, Louisiana, you’re an expert on the opinions of us Alabamians, are you?
Funny, I don’t remember anyone asking me if I wanted the monument there.
For the record, I have lived my entire life in Alabama. I was raised in a Southern Baptist church, and still attend one today. I am a devout Christian. And I (along with EVERY SINGLE OTHER PERSON I HAVE TALKED WITH ABOUT THIS) do not believe the monument should be in the judicial building.
You don’t have to “search for it.” It’s in the rotunda immediately across from the entrance. It’s highly visible; in fact, it’s pretty much the first thing that hits your eye as you enter the building.
As for the “if it offends you, don’t go there” argument: You ARE aware that the lawsuit which instigated the removal of the monument was filed by three lawyers who have business in the building every day, right? They can’t “not go there”; it’s where their job is. I’m guessing you’d be willing to pay their salaries when they quit their jobs, yes?
I honestly don’t understand why some folks can’t wrap their minds around the concept that “freedom of religion” does not equal “freedom to practice Christianity at the expense of other religions.”
I have seen the monument. It is cordoned off at least two feet from the monument. You can hardly read it even by leaning over the ropes.
I am going to pull-up some info here in a while and post it. It references many, many instances where religious material is placed in various courtrooms throughout the country.
Very easy to walk past the monument. If it offends some of the people who work there, pass by it. This is a public buildng, but almost no body goes there just to hang out, see?
I will better be able to justify my position when I post the info above referenced to.
And for the Christian who said that she knows of no Christians who think it should stay, you should see the hundreds of people who protest the removal everyday in front of the courtroom. There has been not one episode of disorder. Every Chistian I know wants it to stay.
Peace Lady
Lie? Not a crime.
Steal? Usually a crime.
Adultery? Not a crime.
Kill? Usually a crime.
Not even batting .500. So much for the “root of all law.”
Except that my comments haven’t included any insults towards anyone except for the ones that were directed to you specifically. And they stem from two items.
First, as a gay man, I don’t appreciate being referred to as a fruit. Initially, I had attacked your ideas, not you as a person. You respond with “You don’t know what you are talking about because you live in the land of fruits and nuts.”
Second, I have no problem with people from Alabama or Christians. Feel free to show me where I have stated otherwise. They can believe what they want as long as it doesn’t affect someones life who does not choose to believe in the same god that they do. But I do have a problem with you trying to place your beliefs above mine, disregarding the Constitution in the process. Likewise for Mr. Moore.
Quite frankly, as a gay man, I would not be comfortable for one moment in that mans court room. He has already shown that he cannot keep his personal beliefs from influencing his legal decisions. How he feels about homosexuality should not be entering into his decisions but it already has. That alone makes him a disgrace. But he had to go a step further and sneak a monument in during the night because he knew damn well that he was in violation of church and state by doing it. Furthermore, he is ignoring rulings from higher courts. This is not a man that should be determining justice when he has a blatant disregard for it.
And your proclamation that most people from Alabama support Moore just isn’t, well, supported. The whole state didn’t turn up to protest this. 150 people did. So get your facts straight before you start telling everyone that they don’t know what they are talking about.
Then you must have a small circle of Christians you converse with on this subject.
Sauron and I brought this up at our Southern Baptist church last Sunday and every person in the room all said Moore is a grandstanding jackass. And several people said everyone they spoke to also had the same opinion.
You can count this Southern Baptist girl in the group who thinks Moore is an ass and do this only for his own personal gain.
I ran across a story that Moore doesn’t even attend his declared “home church” except at Easter and Christmas. I’ll go dig around and try to find it.
For someone so concerned about his religious convictions he sure doesn’t seem to live it unless a camera is around…
Hey, there’s no law/Commandment against that. Covet away!
Ah, but here is the point – what about non-Christians? Do their opinions not count? Or is it a Christian-only decision?
Isn’t it obvious, Tdn. According to Peace Lady and her friends, only Christians are real citizens amd the rest of us only exist on their sufferance.
I am grateful to Sauron[ and Arues28 for their patient, thoughtful, intelligent posts. It is good to know that not all the Christians in Alabama are complete jugheads.
And that, I presume, is because this country was founded on Christian principles, despite all evidence to the contrary. We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, as long as they worship the way we do. The hell with all the rest.
Me too. I feel priviledged to share a board with them.
Let’s try this: Change the word “monument” in your post with the words “copy of the September issue of ‘Hustler.’” Now tell me if you’d be offended by such a display in the state judicial building.
What’s that? ‘Hustler’ isn’t a basis for laws in this country? I submit that Larry Flynt has done as much for the rights of free speech for individuals as almost anyone else you care to name in the last, oh, 30 years.
Again, I will attempt to explain this. Some religious material certainly has a place in the judicial system – when it’s obviously a basis of the laws in question. As does the Code of Hammurabi. As does the work of Solon. Frame the Ten Commandments in context with other historical laws – as the decoration in and around the U.S. Supreme Court does – and I gots no problem with it. When you maintain (as Moore does) that the only reason for the monument’s placement is because it’s a religious display, then I have a problem with it.
Stop and think about what you’re saying. The people of Alabama should collectively fund a building that is used as a place to interpret and codify the laws of our state. The public area of the building should also house a monument that alienates some, if not many, of the people in Alabama. Regardless, they should pay for upkeep of the building, to (in part) shelter this monument that offends them.
Does the phrase “taxation without representation” ring any bells with you?
By your logic, we could put up a display to the KKK in the rotunda. Their instigation and attacks indirectly resulted in many of the antisegregation rulings. If it offends anybody – hey, just pass it by. No harm, no foul. Or we could put a 30’ x 50’ banner showing the featured female in the September issue of ‘Hustler.’ It offends you? Don’t look at it. Problem solved.
I agree that the gatherings have been very peaceful and quiet, which is one of the few things that makes me proud of this situation. But to say that “hundreds of people protest the removal” as justification for it remaining is wrong. You are aware that people have been bussed in to protest, right? Many from across the country? Just because “hundreds” of people are protesting, that doesn’t mean they represent the wishes and desires of several million Alabamians.
Since no one else took you to task for this, I guess I will.
This argument is so old and full of holes that it resmbles moldy swiss cheese. The idea that Christians invented morality is just plain wrong. The idea that if you don’t follow the ten commandments then you must be morally bankrupt is, itself, bankrupt.
One does not need a codified list to know right from wrong. I don’t need a stone tablet to know that killing someone is a bad idea. I don’t steal from people because I have empathy. I don’t need the threat of brimstone to keep me honest. I try not to lie because that’s the best way to keep my life simple and happy. No amount of sulfer is going to further convince me of that.
Yes, it is entirely possible for people to live moral and upstanding lives even if they don’t have the threat of some diety hanging over their heads. Some people lead good lives because that is a good way to live.
To suggest that Xians are more moral is just boasting.
Wow…thanks gobear and tdn. I value your opinions very much and appreciate your posts.
I truly don’t understand why some Christians are having a hard time understanding why Moore is wrong in this instance.
I fully believe in the Ten Commandments. I don’t, however, believe they belong in a government building solely as a religious monument where non-Christians and others are represented.
There has to be a line between government and religion. Moore has not only crossed that line…he is jumping up and down on it every chance he gets.
He has found himself a platform and will use this is a few years to run for a higher office and unfortunately, will probably win since he was “the man who kept God in Alabama.” :rolleyes:
And just HOW do you know so much about the September issue of Hustler, love?
Something you want to confess? 