Nothing you’ve said so far makes any sense.
Now you want us to believe that Wisconsin, with the same record and a worse conference record, is a “much better team” than Michigan becasue of Michigan’s performance in years past?
If I told you she is HOT would it mitigate your complaint?
So does this mean that the Aggies could be an NFL team?
You’re right about the overrall lack of quality OOC games. But here’s what annoys people about the SEC (well, it annoys me anyway).
In the SEC there are 14 teams in the conference, and each year you can probably expect 1-3 of those teams to compete for a Nat’l Championship, and 4-6 of those teams to be quality teams. Pretty much like every other BCS conference, though you could argue that the SEC has more of the “quality teams” than other conferences (IMO the Big 12 and the Pac 12 are loaded with quality teams this year). On average your typical SEC team gets to see maybe 2-3 good in-conference opponents every year, 5-6 games against the mediocre to bad teams , and the usual cupcake OOC schedule. Again, pretty much like every other BCS conference, though exacerbated in the SEC’s case by having 14 teams instead of 12 (that means 5 conference teams you don’t see every year, instead of 3).
What makes the SEC’s poll bias so pernicious is that the 6-8 teams that are quality or better get credit for the quality of conference teams with two degrees of separation. So Georgia got crushed by SCar, but Georgia beat Florida, who beat LSU, so…Georgia is better than LSU? But wait, LSU beat SCar, and LSU may have lost to Bama, but they did beat TAMU, who handed Bama its only loss. The perceived strength of the SEC creates a mutually supporting web of ranked teams, even though each team may get to play, at most, 4 of the other decent or better teams (this isn’t always true; in 2010 all the good teams were in the SEC West, and so each got to play one another, but they’re split evenly between the divisions this year). And every season there’s at least a couple total pretenders that get to hide out within the protective embrace of the SEC’s reputation, but they often sneak through most of the season before they’re exposed. Miss. St. is the prime example this year. They started 7-0 and were ranked 11th while beating nobody of note, and then got hammered in three straight games.
Now consider how this plays out in the context of Bama’s season. They start ranked 2nd in both polls. They thrash Michigan, and the voters are impressed, garnering them about 75% of the first place votes. By week 7 they have all the AP votes, and all but one of the coaches’ votes (which went to Oregon). And #11 Miss. St. is coming to town. After dominating Miss. St., the voters are now convinced, and Bama has all the votes in both polls. They beat LSU (an LSU team with…two quality conference wins), and now there’s no question that they’re the top team and are going to win it all. When they lose to TAMU, it’s not surprising that they only fall to #4, given how they’ve been built up in the minds of the voters. Compare the treatment of Bama to USC (lost on the road by a TD to a pretty good Stanford team, falls 11 spots in the AP poll and 10 in the coaches’) or Oklahoma (loses to the current BCS #1 K-State, falls 10 spots in both polls) or even Florida State (disappointing defeat at NC State on a late TD, falls 9 spots in the AP from #3, crushes Boston College the following week yet falls another 2 spots). The only difference is that their losses happened earlier in the season, before the contenders and pretenders could be sniffed out, and the poll voters aren’t going to revisit some of the now-questionable (or now-impressive) wins and adjust their votes accordingly. Oklahoma’s two losses came against the current BCS #1 and #3, yet they got only a 1 spot bump in the polls this week. The SEC has turned the maxim of “it’s better to lose early than lose late” on its head.
Now you could argue that Georgia and Florida and LSU and TAMU are actually better than Oklahoma and Florida State and Clemson and Stanford. Perhaps. If they are, that would justify the top three 1-loss teams in the BCS being SEC teams, and the top three 2-loss teams in the BCS being SEC teams, giving them six teams in the top 10. But that benefit of the doubt is an awfully nice thing to have come bowl selection, and I have questions about four of those teams. I’m not saying they’re grossly overrated. I’m saying that you could make cases for every other team in the top 15, but the SEC teams get the nod based solely on conference rep, not what they’ve done on the field.
Hey, no argument from me. As long as you have conferences, and very little play outside of them, this is going to be a problem. Last year was total BS.
Notre Dame should be ranked #1. They have played a better schedule than KSU or Oregon to this point. The problem is the early season ranking. KSU beat Oklahoma early enough in the season to benefit from a huge boost in the polls. ND just beat Oklahoma (more impressively) a couple weeks ago and moved up 1 spot. And they only got that because Florida lost on the same day.
They shouldn’t do a coaches poll until the first BCS ranking is compiled. Let the AP do whatever the hell they want.
I think ultimately we’re all arguing the same thing, which is in the absence of a reasonable number of meaningful non-conference games, any polls are basically guesswork, and that a larger than 4 team playoff would go a long way towards resolving the conflicts.
This may be for a different thread, but the discussion is drifting towards the rankings, so…
According to my rudimentary math, it appears that at most 11 people in the Harris poll have Notre Dame ranked #4 - and at the worst, one person dropped them to #14. I can understand the arguments not putting ND in the top 2, but I have a hard time with anyone logically putting ND lower than #3. That lone first-place vote for Alabama is absurd.
The human polls will always have some bias. Especially the ones that are filled out by coaches, former coaches, former players or anyone with any kind of obviously vested interest in the outcome.
I agree that the early season ranking causes problems, and ND has been so mediocre for such a long time that I think it’s taken most people a few extra games to think that they might be legit.
But I don’t agree that ND should be #1, based on games I’ve watched of all three ND seems to be in the correct spot (IMO).
In the 3 previous seasons, KState was 23-15 while ND was 22-16. I guess what it boils down to is the ranking system sucks. That said, I’ll be surprised if there are still 3 undefeated teams at the end of the regular season. Things should work themselves out, unless you end up with a whole bunch of 1 loss teams.
Read an article from an Alabama apologist that the Tide would win the Championship if it were a 4 team playoff. They stopped short of saying that this year winner would be invalid but I find it interesting that in previous years with other teams on the outside looking in (Boise St, OSU, etc.) or when a team gets a rematch the attitude of the SEC is “that’s the sytem.” but now we are starting to see some SEC apologists to say the system is flawed since 'Bama is knocked out of playing for the title. I wonder how mainstream that thinking will become in the media.
Remember how, not so long ago, people used to say that college football was the best sport of all, because “EVERY game counts.”
But really, that hasn’t been true for a long time.
Last year, Alabama lost at home to LSU… but that game didn’t really count, did it?
A few years earlier, LSU lost twice! But neither of those games counted.
And if SEC fans have their way, none of their teams’ losses will count this year, either.
Even bias isn’t the real problem. I’m quite prepared to believe that MOST sportswriters and coaches are decent guys, all of whom know a LOT more about football than I do, and who WANT to cast an honest, informed, just vote.
Problem is… Mack Brown doesn’t know or see any more of Notre Dame or Oregon than you and I do! Oh, he knows ALL about Kansas State and Oklahoma, because they’re in his conference and he has to study them intensely. But he doesn’t have time to watch a lot of football on TV. He doesn’t KNOW anything about Michigan or Stanford or Florida State this year.
Moreover, if you asked them off the record, most coaches would probably TELL you forthrightly, “I don’t fill out the ballot, because I just don’t have time. I give it to the Athletic Department’s PR guy (or to an assistant coach or to a secretary or…).”
That makes the polls WORSE than meaningless.
Every game does count. That is not the same as saying that every championship team must go undefeated.
No but SEC, PAC12, Big10 one-loss teams beat out undefeated mid-majors so in effect one game didn’t count.
**Munch **said someone has Notre Dame at #14 in their poll this week. That’s not ignorance, that’s bias.
Face it, there’s a caste system in college football. It goes something like this:
The Untouchables The lowest of the low. Not only do you have no chance whatsoever of getting to the title game, there is no chance that you will get to ANY BCS game. You’re just not in the right conference and you lack the name recognition and tradition to get that high in the polls. Examples: East Carolina, Memphis, Tulane, Tulsa, Akron, Ball State, Bowling Green, Buffalo, Central Michigan, Eastern Michigan, Kent State, Miami (OH), Northern Illinois, Ohio, Toledo, Western Michigan, Air Force, Colorado State, Nevada Las Vegas, New Mexico, San Diego State, Wyoming, Arkansas State, Florida Atlantic, Florida International, Louisiana Lafayette, Louisiana Monroe, Middle Tennessee State, North Texas, South Alabama, Troy, Western Kentucky, Fresno State, Idaho, Louisiana Tech, Nevada, New Mexico State, San Jose State, Utah State.
The Great Unwashed You look down on the untouchables, but you have no chance of getting into the title game. You may be in a BCS conference or have a reputation as a good non-BCS school, so you can go to a BCS game at 12-0. It’s just that the championship game is going to be always just beyond your grasp. They don’t want you in there, and you aren’t going to get there. Examples: Duke, North Carolina, North Carolina State, Virginia, Wake Forest, Cincinnati, Connecticut, Louisville, Rutgers, South Florida, Syracuse, Indiana, Northwestern, Iowa State, Kansas, Kansas State, Alabama Birmingham, Central Florida, Houston, Marshall, Rice, Southern Methodist, Southern Mississippi, Texas El Paso, Army, Navy, Brigham Young, Texas Christian, Utah , Boise State, Hawaii.
Commoners You’re in a BCS conference, but you’re not exactly what people want to see in the title game. Yes, it’s possible that you can go, but you need help. You need to go 12-0. One loss and you can forget about it. Going 12-0 isn’t enough. You need to have no more than one undefeated team among the castes above you. In fact, it’s quite possible that a 12-1 or 11-1 team from the royalty would go in place of you. So in addition to having a perfect season, you have to hope that you’ve moved up into the top 2 spots in the polls. If not, you’ll get your BCS game, but no shot at the title. Examples: Boston College, Clemson, Georgia Tech, Virginia Tech, Pittsburgh, West Virginia, Illinois, Iowa, Michigan State, Minnesota, Purdue, Wisconsin, Baylor, Colorado, Missouri, Oklahoma State, Texas A&M, Texas Tech, Arizona, Arizona State, California, Oregon, Oregon State, Stanford, Washington, Washington State, Arkansas, Kentucky, Mississippi, Mississippi State, South Carolina, Vanderbilt.
Nobility You’re in good shape. If you go 12-0, you’re in. Even one loss will not automatically disqualify you. You’re going to get the benefit of the doubt from the pollsters, a loss will only drop you down a few spots which you will make up in just a few games. You can’t lose too late in the season, though. Get your loss in early and you’ll be fine. You’ll need a little help with one loss, an undefeated commoner could take your spot. So with one loss you need to have no undefeated commoners and no other nobles with one loss or less and no royals with one loss or less. If you don’t make it, don’t fret too much. Since you’re among the elite, you’ll get your chances soon enough. Examples: Florida State, Miami (FL), Michigan, Ohio State, Pennsylvania State, Nebraska, UCLA, Auburn, Georgia, Tennessee
RoyaltyYou’re used to having your ass kissed. You don’t have to worry about one loss, it will have no effect on your shot at the title. Two losses and you probably won’t make it. An undefeated commoner would go in place of a two loss royal, a noble with one loss would go in place of a two loss royal. But if anyone can go with two losses, it’s you. You’re going to be in the top 25 to start the year. Wins will move you up the ladder, one loss and you lose just a little ground. People really, really want you in that title game, it’s almost like it’s your birthright. Examples: Oklahoma, Texas, Notre Dame, Southern California, Alabama, Florida, Louisiana State.
No, I said that at best there are 11 voters who put ND at #4, or one voter who put them at #14. (Most likely, it’s somewhere in the middle.)
Interestingly, the new playoff format they just agreed to actually relegates the entire Big East to The Great Unwashed status. 5 conferences (SEC, Big10, Big 12, Pac 12, ACC) get automatic berths into the major bowls for their conference champs, while the other 5 “mid-majors” (Big East, Conference USA, MAC, MWC, Sun Belt) combined get one automatic berth for the highest rated conference champ among the group.
A pretty neat trick by the BCS conference presidents. They manage to add two major games to bowl season, while cutting out a former partner in splitting the lion’s share of the revenue.