Alec Baldwin [accidentally] Kills Crew Member with Prop Gun {2021-10-21}

[Broomstick]

@BobLibDem

Not a gun person by any means, so I don’t know anything. So it was wadding that killed the person? How far away from the gun would wadding sill be going fast enough to be lethal? I’m guessing that it isn’t particularly aerodynamic and after 50’ or so it isn’t deadly but if someone has a better figure I’d like to know.

I heard on the news today that a safety distance of 15-20 feet is recommended for shooting blanks on a TV or movie set. Presumably, there is also a safety margin built into that.

I will, however, point out that we don’t know what sort of projectile was in the gun, whether or not said projectile was supposed to be the one in the gun (or if it was supposed to be entirely empty for rehearsal purposes), or what, exactly happened.

As a completely hypothetical pulled-out-of-my-backside, wildly speculative example: if said projectile had shattered a nearby glass window the shards of glass from said window could have inflicted fatal injury. A freakish occurrence, to be sure, but a possible one. I doubt that’s the case because if it was I would have expected to hear something about “broken glass” in the news reports, but merely an example of how Bad Stuff Can Happen In The Workplace.

@susan

Well, with Brian Laundrie’s skeletonized body now discovered, some people turn their attention to the next death about which they can spin out fantasies.

I suspect that is also a part of the hyperventilating and pearl-clutching.

@Fluffy_PickleSniffer

I’m also still confused. I always thought a blank was simply a bubble of gunpowder that was hammered down on to make noise and smoke - kind of like a kid’s toy gun, without the strip of paper coming out the end.

You need something to keep the powder collected together until it goes >POP<. The stuff that does that is what comes out the business end and, if it’s close enough to, say, your skull it can potentially kill you. See Jon-Erik Hexum if you haven’t already followed the link.

These sorts of accidents are tragic, and are avoidable in one sense, but because there are people and mechanical gadgets involved there is always the potential for things to go very wrong. Every 20-30 years there seems to be such an accident. Perhaps, with improved CGI, in the future there will be less need for props that actually go BANG! and greater safety.

Most likely this is an accident, in my opinion. (Which may change with additional information/evidence.)

@Loach

My thought was also that the movie was low budget enough to not have a CGI budget to add in effects later.

Oh, hell, kiddies in mom’s basement self-editing YouTube and TikTok uploads can afford CGI these days!

Alright, alright, maybe they weren’t intending to use CGI for the bang-flash-smoke. But I find it hard to believe that any professional level production these days couldn’t afford that minimal level of effects.

There is also the suggestion that at least two bullets were fired, as Hutchins was shot in the stomach and director Souza in the head.

Well, if it was a real bullet it might have gone through Hutchins and hit Souza “in the head” afterward - if it hit a large blood vessel in Hutchens (and there are lot of them in the abdomen) she could bleed out, and if the bullet that hit Souza in the head had already been depleted of energy by going through Hutchins, or just grazed him, that might explain his survival.

Again, wild speculation on my part subject to change with actual information.

@Son_of_a_Rich

I guess if you needed the bang to sych up the sound on the recording, and you put a beeper in the gun instead of explosives you might take the actors out of the moment.

@flurb

Blockbuster filmmaking these days requires actors to deliver heartfelt dialogue to a man in a green body suit covered in ping pong balls. I think they can work through hearing a beep instead of a bang.

^ This.

A professional actor can work around things like a gun going ~boop~ instead of !BANG!

@Mahaloth

The quote from him on set was, “Why was I handed a hot gun? In all my years, I’ve never been handed a hot gun.”

Does this mean a real bullet? Or a blank?

My understanding is “hot gun” means “a real bullet in a gun that can really fire”.

@Velocity

Dumb question 2: Is the movie going to be canceled? Hard to imagine Baldwin continuing to carry on acting with the movie or it being released without audiences always thinking about this incident while watching Rust.

Movies often (thought not always) are finished even when there was a death during production. Top Gun, for instance, retained the shot of Art Scholl’s fatal spin in the commercial release (by the way, Scholl’s family was OK with that, just in case anyone was wondering).

There will, of course, be an interruption in production while this is investigated. Whether or not the film is finished is up to the people involved, including backers and insurance coverage.

For sure, something went very wrong here.

Thank you, all you folks with actual professional experience, for coming here to enlighten us.

[Little_Nemo]

@Johnny_L.A

Detective: You’re saying he fell on the knife 17 times?

“It was an accident. I was cleaning my knife and it went off.”

[Johnny_L.A]

Man, I hope Alec Baldwin and people who knew the DP don’t see my or others’ posts.

[Little_Nemo]

@Dewey_Finn

What’s the difference between director of photography and director of cinematography?

My understanding is that the director of photography is the person who is in charge of the physical condition and operation of the cameras and the supervisor of the camera operators.

The director of cinematography is the person who makes decisions about what the cameras shoot. They will decide things like what kind of film and filters are used, and where the cameras will be positioned. They’re the person responsible for the “look” of the film footage.

[Mahaloth]

@Broomstick

Movies often (thought not always) are finished even when there was a death during production. Top Gun, for instance, retained the shot of Art Scholl’s fatal spin in the commercial release (by the way, Scholl’s family was OK with that, just in case anyone was wondering).

The Crow was released and Brandon Lee died filming it. They were really close to done, though.

[ISiddiqui]

@Cartooniverse

But before I do, here’s a bit of fact that occurred the night before the shooting that has gone utterly unreported in the media: 4 members of the Camera Department quit this show that night.

The LA Times has reported on it:

Alec Baldwin ‘Rust’ camera crew walked off before shooting - Los Angeles Times (latimes.com)

As the camera crew — members of the International Alliance of Theatrical Stage Employees — spent about an hour assembling their gear at the Bonanza Creek Ranch, several nonunion crew members showed up to replace them, the knowledgeable person said.

A member of the producer staff then ordered the union members to leave the set. She said if they didn’t leave, the producers would call security to remove them.

“Corners were being cut — and they brought in nonunion people so they could continue shooting,” the knowledgeable person said.

There were two misfires on the prop gun and one the previous week, the person said, adding “there was a serious lack of safety meetings on this set.”

[Johnny_L.A]

Does the paywalled article say anything?

[Andy_L]

That happened on Monk too - with the catch that the prop knife was replaced after the apparent death of the victim

[Inigo_Montoya]

@Gyrate

The armorer’s job is to check and doublecheck to make sure the prop weapon is safe to use, and then to hand it to the actor whose job it is to point it and make it go bang while emoting appropriately.

Took 103 posts, but this one finally got me off the “Alec’s fault” path. In the real world when someone hands you a firearm, you open the action to confirm it is not loaded. But in those instances the person receiving the firearm knows they are receiving a firearm and the interaction is all about the firearm at least initially. But I can see how an actor, who might otherwise have no experience with the things, wouldn’t need to know any of that. You hand them a cat, they act. You hand them a lamp, they act. In their mind it is only a prop–which is very different from how a gun person understands them. So okay, the armorer handed him an unsafe thing (a tiger, a poorly wired lamp, an improperly maintained firearm).

[ISiddiqui]

I added a snip… the most interesting thing was there were 2 misfires on the prop gun before the tragic accident!

[Johnny_L.A]

Thanks.

I’ve only worked on a couple of projects involving guns, but I was paranoid and checked and double-checked before shooting.

[Love_Rhombus]

@Johnny_L.A

I’ve only worked on a couple of projects involving guns, but I was paranoid and checked and double-checked before shooting.

Are you allowed to do that? Not saying you did anything wrong, but wouldn’t they want you to not fool with it? Or am I mistaken and you were taking care of the guns not acting with them? I may have missed a post.

[flurb]

@ISiddiqui

The LA Times has reported on it:

Alec Baldwin ‘Rust’ camera crew walked off before shooting - Los Angeles Times (latimes.com)

If the allegations in that article are true – including that there were already previous incidents of the prop gun misfiring – anyone in a position of authority over the shoot is in for a world of hurt. Potentially including Baldwin as a producer.

[cochrane]

@ISiddiqui

I added a snip… the most interesting thing was there were 2 misfires on the prop gun before the tragic accident!

If that’s the case, the gun should have been taken out of action and should not have been used any more.

[Dewey_Finn]

@Little_Nemo

@Dewey_Finn

What’s the difference between director of photography and director of cinematography?

My understanding is that the director of photography is the person who is in charge of the physical condition and operation of the cameras and the supervisor of the camera operators.

The director of cinematography is the person who makes decisions about what the cameras shoot. They will decide things like what kind of film and filters are used, and where the cameras will be positioned. They’re the person responsible for the “look” of the film footage.

On a production this small and poorly staffed, I really doubt these are separate positions but given that @Cartooniverse made the distinction, I’d like to hear from him.

[DrDeth]

Good post Cartoonverse, thanks.

[Johnny_L.A]

@Love_Rhombus

Are you allowed to do that? Not saying you did anything wrong, but wouldn’t they want you to not fool with it? Or am I mistaken and you were taking care of the guns not acting with them? I may have missed a post.

The films had a smaller budget than ‘low budget independent films’ spend on catering. Like, low- to mid-five figures. So in addition to being Script Supervisor one one and DP on the other one, I was also the Armourer because I have experience with firearms. (On the second one, the Director/Producer/Writer was a huge gun guy so we were co-Armourers.)

[Wheelz]

@Inigo_Montoya

Took 103 posts, but this one finally got me off the “Alec’s fault” path. In the real world when someone hands you a firearm, you open the action to confirm it is not loaded. But in those instances the person receiving the firearm knows they are receiving a firearm and the interaction is all about the firearm at least initially.

It’s also my understanding - and of course I could be wrong - that if the actor opens the firearm, it must then be handed back to the armorer to re-check it before going back again to the actor. So you’d think an actor would be discouraged from doing so. I think the protocol is to trust the armorer, for better or worse.

[ZipperJJ]

Welp, I guess this tragedy has already become a political hotbutton, thanks to Baldwin being outspoken against Trump. Trolls are trollin’ hard on the page for The Hilaria & Alec Baldwin Foundation and it’s absolutely sick. And most sadly of all, I only know this because my idiot ex-best-friend is one of the trolls. Sigh.

[JRDelirious]

@Broomstick

My understanding is “hot gun” means “a real bullet in a gun that can really fire”.

@Wheelz

It’s also my understanding - and of course I could be wrong - that if the actor opens the firearm, it must then be handed back to the armorer to re-check it before going back again to the actor. So you’d think an actor would be discouraged from doing so. I think the protocol is to trust the armorer, for better or worse.

Yeah, that’s what I get from it. The actor is not to futz around with the hazardous device but trust the crew and do with the thing what the script says to do, no less, no more. Heck I would not be surprised if for rehearsal Baldwin expected to get an inert prop, that at most would just go “click”.

The bit about the labor issues does raise the questions about how well managed and organized was the whole operation. Suggests increased vulnerability to a chain-of-fuckups. Though as pointed out we only have allegations that the prop weapon had problems, as cochrane said, if that was so it should have been removed from set and replaced with one that worked right. This part of the production is NOT a candidate for cutting corners and going cheap.