i was reading on findadeath.com the other day about jon erik hexum and how he died by shooting himself with a blank gun and the wadding junk went into brain and he was outta here. didn’t brandon lee end up the same way? so, do they still use blank guns in hollywood?
I thought brandon lee was lying in traffic trying to get cars to run above him (taht is he was lying parallel to the road in the middle of a lane). Unfortunately a car ran OVER him. But I could be wrong. Maybe that was somebody else.
are you serious? asked handsomebutdenseharry.
Unless I’m mistaken, the guns they use in Hollywood are real. The fire what are called “blanks” which are bullet cartridges that have a wad of paper in place of a bullet. The mistake that Jon Erik Huxom and others have made is in thinking that the gun isn’t loaded with anything. It is. The powder charge in the blank is nearly as much as there would be with a bullet. This is to ensure that the wadding is expelled out of the barrel and that there’s a proper muzzle flash for when the gun fires. Why Hollywood doesn’t use blowback replicas, I don’t know. There’s a couple of Dopers who’ve worked in the film industry who might be able to answer that question.
Wouldn’t a replica have a blocked barrel? I assumed the reason they use real guns is so that there is a muzzle flash, giving the impression that a bullet is actually being fired.
Brandon lee was killed by a blank, whilst filming The Crow. Here’s a snippet from a mini-biography taken from imdb.com:
Actually, what happened with Brandon was that a gun was used in a scene with prop cartridges, which have no charge but have a real bullet. Then later, the dummy cartridges were removed, and blanks were put in the gun. Unfortunately, one of the bullets came off when the dummies were removed, and stayed in the cylinder.
So Lee was essentially shot point-blank with a real .45 bullet.
I worked for about 8 days on a very low budget movie, and there was a prop gun. IIRC, it was 8mm, so that standard bullets wouldn’t fit in it, and the prop guy was very particular about taking it back from the actors between takes.
Then again, this movie didn’t need a muzzle flash, so I don’t know if that applies here.
There’s many ways to simulate the firing of a gun in the movies.
For something like a revolver, it’s easy- a blank cartridge is used, that contains the usual primer, but a special powder to enhance the flash both for brightness and duration. It’s usually held in the case by crimping the case mouth, so there’s nothing, not even a wax or paper plug, to be ejected with any force.
There was a movie with… I think one of the Baldwins, which showed the side profile of a SIG handgun being fired by the female lead, right at the beginning during the credits. The last shot she fires locks the slide open, and the case dangles there for a moment: You can clearly see the serrations of the case mouth where the crimp had been blown open.
You can see many more “crimped” cases littering the floor after the thugs break in and spray the place in the movie Joe’s Apartment (with the CGI cockroaches.)
Regular “gunpowder” propellants often actually have compounds to supress the flash. Obviously this is the opposite of what’s wanted for the filming, as they prefer the flash to occur over two or three frames, so the powder is specially mixed for brightness and duration of the burn.
For a semiautomatic firearm, if there’s no projectile for the propellant to “react” against, the powder doesn’t impart enough energy to operate the slide and chamber another round- it becomes a clunky single-shot. In these, the barrel is typically drilled and fitted with a restrictor plate, a plug that screws in and has a small hole in the center.
This “jet” gives the hot propellant gas something to “work” against, so it can force open the slide and work the action. It also does the double-duty of preventing any actual projectile from being ejected, potentially causing an injury.
In the first Lethal Weapon movie, where Gibson is prone out in the Desert with the H&K rifle, the muzzle is clearly seen several times, showing a tiny restrictor port. Same game- it provides the restriction needed to operate the rifle’s semiautomatic action.
When Shwartzenegger is carefully walking through the “alien trap” vine-net they made in the first Predator movie, you can see a similar restrictor built into the “bird cage” flash hider on the muzzle of his M-16.
Third, there’s a non-gun variant called a “gas gun”. These are wholly-fabricated fakes that use puffs of acetylene or propane gas, ignited electrically, to simulate the muzzle blast. It’s tough to tell when an actor is using a “gas” gun as opposed to a blank-firing arm, but typically, due to size constraints, the gas guns are used in place of rifles and larger arms.
In the movie Harlem Nights, there’s a scene with Arsenio Hall in a car chasing after Ediie Murphy. Hall is holding what’s supposed to be a Thompson (“Tommy gun”) submachine gun, but several times during the chase you can see a blue/yellow propane-like flame, almost like a pilot light, coming from the muzzle of the gun.
And fourth, though it doesn’t simulate firing, the actors are often carrying solid rubber fakes- especially if they’re going to be dropped, tossed, thrown overboard or involved in a crash or stunt.
In the “Lobby” scene in The Matrix, if you watch the last jump-kick that Neo does to the last soldier, when the soldier’s M-16 lands, you can plainly see the muzzle bend and spring back.
Re Doc Nickell’s post and the Hexum fatality:
“For something like a revolver, it’s easy- a blank cartridge is used, that contains the usual primer, but a special powder to enhance the flash both for brightness and duration. It’s usually held in the case by crimping the case mouth, so there’s nothing, not even a wax or paper plug, to be ejected with any force.”
IIRC, it may have been such a revolver-blank combination that claimed Hexum. The gas force exiting the barrel had enough pressure to blow a hole through a skull, if held directly to the head. Correct me if I am wrong.
I think what actually happened was that the prop load was faulty. Ordinarily a prop cartridge would have a case, a spent primer, and a bullet. In Lee’s case, the prop had a live primer. He pulled the trigger once and IIRC someone heard a sound but didn’t think anything of it. The hammer hit the primer, which exploded as it was designed to; but since there was no powder in the case there was only enough force to lodge the very real bullet in the barrel. In the fatal scene the director called for a “maximum load”, or a blank cartridge with the maximum amount of gunpowder in it that gives the largest muzzle flash. So what you have is this: A real revolver. A bullet in the barrel. A full powder charge behind the bullet. The energy of the projectile was nearly that of a live round.
I’ve used blanks in two films. The AR-15s (substituting for M-16s) used crimped military blanks. The revolvers used plastic blanks from Stembridge Gun Rentals. In both cases the guns were real. In the first of these films we also used an FAL. This used a military blank cartridge that had an extended and tapered neck. The powder was held in with a thin cardboard disc. This is the type of blank you see in belt-fed machineguns if you look close.
If you need a large number of guns, or if guns will be abused, the studio will make guns from silicone, rubber or plastic. I examined one of these on a film shoot, and it had the gun manufacturer’s markings and serial number on it. For realism they use a real gun to make the mould.
My friend Paul is a stuntman here in Vancouver, and often does gun work. (Or throwing flaming spears off cliffs because he’s an alien in Andromeda. Whatever’s paying that day.)
He concurs with Johnny LA’s description-- and that basically the prop master buggered his job by not checking that the barrel was clean (empty) before loading with a blank.
In a show called Jeremiad there’s one night scene with loads of people firing automatic weapons at a helicopter. Paul’s in the crowd, and they were firing blanks.
In the case of Mr. Hexum, that’s the way I heard it. He had a gun with some blanks, and- supposedly- said something like “hey watch this” to some friends. At which he placed the gun to his temple and fired.
The blast had more than enough energy to propel bone fragments into his brain, killing him just as surely as a bullet would have.
The sad part is, even if he’d survived by some happenstance, he’d have basically deafened himself in that ear- blanks are about as loud as actual cartridges.
There’s a story I’ve heard of a blind individual- perhaps only “legally” blind, I’m not sure- who has recieved permission, for whatever reason, to carry a large-caliber (presumably short-barreled) revolver loaded with commercial blanks. Fired at muzzle-contact distances, the blast can be easily as lethal, or at least seriously incapacitating, as an actual bullet, yet at anything over a few feet, it’ll inflict little or no injury. So he doesn’t have to worry about “missing” and if it’s taken away from him in a struggle, he’s likely not to be injured himself.
Apocryphal, yes, but the concept is workable.
As far as Brandon Lee’s death, one of the rumors I’d heard is that the scene was one of the last to be filmed- which is why the movie still made it into release even without the starring actor. Supposedly the firearms-prop handler(s) were dismissed towards the end to help reduce costs as they came close to the end (of both the filming and the budget.)
And yes, it’s more than possible for a “squib” load or even just the primer to pop the bullet from the case and lodge it in the barrel. At which point the blast from the blank would have propelled it out with nearly normal-firearms force. Even a reduced speed of only 400 to 500 fps- absurdly slow for any modern cartridge- is plenty lethal at phone-booth ranges.
I concur with Johnny as well ( rare as that may be 
). I’ve been involved with quite a few shoots with shooting, as we say. As a Steadicam Operator, I had to be pretty close in to the gunfire to make my presence worthwhile on set.
On a film called " No Way Home" with Tim Roth and James Russo, we did some gunfire work. There was the big shoot-out at the end. Glock 9mm guns. Full load blanks. The armorer we had on set was hesitant to let me get closer than 30 feet. I negotiated 15 feet with 99% body protection. My left and right hands had to be uncovered but the grips had a blast swathing my entire body in Duvateen.
I wore my OWN eye protection and headgear. I got permission from Production to kiss off one Optical Flat filter for the lens. That is, a clear rectangle of glass over the front element of the lens. That way, as I shoot the cops shooting towards me, the bits of powder and wadding flying towards me. We had to do a few takes to get one that worked, but it looked fine. The Optical Flat was a loss, and my knuckles were a bit spotty with debris. Otherwise, it was all safe and fine.
I also worked on a few Civil War Recreation shows for the History Channel. Those involved a cannon ( oh lord, very scary ) and many rifles. In that case, there was not a formal armorer since the rifles were owned by their users, but there was a Master Prop person who coordinated with the Special EFX person on shooting. I only had one bad moment with those guys, and it took me docking my Steadicam and walking over to the Producer for a quick serious chat, to straighten out a few over-eager riflemen.
Having said all of this, I detest all firearms with a hatred that knows no bounds. I’ve had to work near them, but never ever have enjoyed a single moment of it. They’re a part of the movies. It’s a damned pity they are a part of real life as well. My two cents.
Cartooniverse
You get points with me for doing the job even with your strong feelings about the firearms.
Guns in the hands of normal folks getting to be in a movie are enough to scare me. commonm senmse out the window a lot of times I would imagine.
Either you’re trolling, or you’ve got wires crossed in your brain. 
You’ve described The Program, a 1993 movie about college football. The actors all survived, but some real-life jackasses tried the stunt themselves. “Minor injuries” resulted, according to IMDb, which prompted the studio to delete the scene.
Next time you watch a not-too-high budget war movie, notice how the muzzle blasts seem to “spike out” sideways in weird patterns ?
Most armies know that soldiers will do silly things in the heat of simulated battle, so modern blank firing attachments will vent the gases to the side, not straight ahead - thus making for a smaller unsafe area in front of the weapon.
If you know what to look for, the attachments produce recognizable patterns where the gases are exhausted - the H&K G3 (the rifle I’m most familiar with) vents through 4 small openings, producing a very characteristic cross-shaped muzzle blast. The German MG 3 (rechambered version of the MG 42) has a pretty star-shaped blast pattern through its 12 vents.
Both weapons will have a spiky-looking muzzle blast pointing straight ahead when firing live ammo. (The G3 less so, it has a muzzle attachment to break up the flame a little when firing live ammo.)
S. Norman - who never owned a weapon but fired a few…