I meant to add this “P.S.” to the above post, but I hit “Submit Reply” too soon.
P.S. I don’t mean to sound combative. Actually, I really do appreciate and am interested in ALL of the above replies. Thanks for sharing. I’m just hoping to “herd” folks back to the issue I was most interested in in the OP.
Male and female are adjectives; i.e. a male nurse or a female attorney. People who use “girl” or “woman” as an adjective should be taken out back and smacked with a grammar book.
I work with a man who is in his mid-50’s. I am 31. When I first started working here, he always used to refer to me as “young lady”. As in, “Thank you, young lady” when I handed him something. It annoyed me to no end. I finally asked him to stop calling me that because I felt like he was my dad or something. Of course, this guy is annoying in a million other ways, and that probably figured in too. But at least he stopped saying it.
I kind of like that one; however, the gentlemen that call me that might hesitate to do so if they knew that it causes me to mentally classify them as “an old sweetheart”.
I’m a feminist guy who uses “girl” as a convenient female counterpart to “guy”. I don’t know of another term that’s really useful in its place and most of the constructions suggested above at very least lose the casual feel of “guy” that makes it so useful. Of course it can’t be used at work or at a place of business, any more than “guy”, since this is a casual usage.
I am occasionally bothered by the fact that “girl”'s denotative meaning refers to a female child, and I share the concern that this is infantilizing, but I reconcile it by just assuming the word (as with many, many other words) has more than one meaning. “Girl” can be either 1) a female child or 2) a casual term to be used in reference to a woman, and whatever the origin of 2 may be, it’s now, to me, just a second meaning to the word.
There is no other handy word for the purpose, at least not one in usage around here. “Lady”, “woman”, “chick”, and possibly even “gal” have their uses, as well as instances in which they are offensive (and as with any word, those very from person to person and group to group) but at least among the people I hang out with, girl is the least marked word to casually refer to a woman. You just can’t make “Who’s that woman playing the guitar?” or “Joe’s dating some woman he met at work” sound natural (unless you’re about to explain that Joe’s date is twenty years his senior.) And the same is true for “man”. They’re both just too formal for that usage.
I don’t get too ruffled if people call me a “girl,” but, again, unless they’re close friends, I don’t particularly like it. I’m not a kid; I’m a woman, with all the freedom and responsibility that being a grown-up entails. I have a job, a husband, and a mortgage; I don’t have a curfew, a homeroom teacher, or cheerleading practice. Thank God I’m not 16 anymore.
bienville, I’m not sure there is a good American English equivalent of “guy.”
My 20 odd year experience is that anyone calling a GROWN woman “girl” is looking to make you lees than they are. I will turn around and call the male “boy” … I have yet to meet one who didn’t get upset and considered being called “boy” a compliment.
I stopped being a girl 20 + years ago. I have the scars of adulthood and I find it VERY insulting to be refered to by a term that denotes childhood or childishness just because I am female.
Now when I am being childish thats another question.
Okay people, here’s how it’s gonna work: I will decide the proper appelations for any and all persons, places, and things. I will tell you what they are. You will use them, to the exclusion of all others. If I have not yet deigned to decide what something should be called, you will not refer to it, but will speak around it. You will refer to all pre-named objects as “it” or “that thing”. Likewise, you will indicate specific people by pointing at them and saying “Gah!” Synonyms and nicknames are hereby abolished. Failure to comply will result in my naming you “Poopy”. Got it?
I think it’s all about context. I’ve been ticked off by people who called me “girl” and clearly meant it in a demeaning way, but the word itself is fine.
I tend to divide the over-13, under-60 world into “chicks” and “dudes” under informal circumstances. My world also includes guys, ladies, women, and in large groups such as the people comprising a traffic jam, “all you fuckers”.
After reading this thread I know why I’ve always referred to women in professional/formal settings in as unisex a manner as possible. Sheesh! Just about any pronoun you could possibly use is offensive at one time or another. I always thought I was being overly cautious, but after reading this thread I guess not.
In social situations, however, referring to a group of people that includes both males and females I have witnessed that it is acceptable to use the pronoun “guys.” At least as far as I’m aware this has never been a problem.
Also, I currently work with a group of men (all of whom I work with are males) and we referr to ourselves as “boys.” Such as in, “O.K. boys let’s get to work and get this job done!” Even though a few among us are 50+.
Isn’t the masculine version of “Lady” “Lord”? I do not use the term under any circumstances. My grandmother was a Lady perhaps.