I see these pictures and videos and think how poorly our soldiers must be trained to do these things, and how little they must think of the people that they’re doing them to. I think that with the full realization that those people put in those positions by our soldiers would, if the positions were reversed, do not only that, but everything up to and including beheading our soldiers, and then I think that, from time to time, if we’re going to fight in the mud, we’re going to have to get dirty, and I don’t mind that even a little bit, because even if it makes you uncomfortable, the facts are well summed up by George Orwell…
And if you don’t think these people would visit us harm if given the opportunity…
And Again.
This war, however you view it, and whatever bad intel, double-speak or outright lies brought it to bear, was necessary. Virulent Radical Muslim Fundamentalism is an absolute threat to people the world over, to deny that, despite the somewhat despicable actions of these troops, is to deny the threat to your very freedom. Our troops are being forced to fight on their level, and it’s a culture shock to the sensitive American sensibilities, but this kind of thing is nowhere NEAR over with.
September 11th was the tip of the proverbial iceberg. Believe that.
The war in Afghanistan may have been necessary. The wart in Iraq was claerly not necessary. And if you belive that Ba’athist Iraq under Hussein was connected, in any way to “Virulent Radical Muslim Fundamentalism”, then you do not have enough knowledge onm the subject to ever express such an uninformed opinion. The “Virulent Radical Muslim Fundamentalism” that is currently displayed in Iraq is a direct result of the U.S. eliminating the Iraqi army that was holding it outside the borders of that country and the fedayeen that was suppressing it inside that country.
If the foe is “Virulent Radical Muslim Fundamentalism,” then Iraq was not only unnecessary, but entirely counterproductive.
As to your desire to get down in the mud, it should be noted that the U.S. figured that over 60% of the people detained there were held without cause, picked up in general sweeps. If you think that detaining (and torturing) people is a good plan to win their hearts and minds, then you are entirely out of touch with reality.
Oh bullshit.
When Blackwell got his nasty mitts involved in Iraqi policy, it became common practice to round up all the males in the 'hood after a bomb went off.
Many of them had nothing to do with terrorism, they were simply unfortunate enough to live in the vicinity.
However, I will agree that after being humilated and tortured, some of them might now consider joining the insurrgency.
If my husband and father-in-law had been unjustly imprisoned and absued for months, I might well consider taking up arms against the forces that put them there.
Saddam, as evil as he was, was no friend to Radical Muslim Fundamentalists.
We’ve managed to stir up that hornet’s nest all on our own in Iraq.
And are you conveniently forgetting that Iraq had no ties to 9/11?
If you’re so hell bent on containing the Fundies-maybe you should direct your attention to our allies in Saudi Arabia.
Culture shock my ass.
Try horror and disgust instead.
And before you start babbling anything about ‘fighting fire with fire’ may I remind you that torture doesn’t work.
John McCain should know and he had this to say about the abuses:
Jackass, do you not get our enemies’ point of view, and why we’re having so much trouble with the whole hearts-and-minds thing?
Here it is in a nutshell:
“Yeah, those Americans, they say they’re the beacon of freedom and equality, and they criticize our leaders, our Assads and our Mubaraks, for being dictators and thugs. But they keep the freedom and equality for themselves; they don’t share. But more importantly, they’re lying. They really aren’t interested in freedom and equality or any of that. They are rich, and they have bought themselves safety, and the freedom and liberty they share among themselves are a luxury they can afford. They will abandon their principles when pushes. Watch. Watch this. Let’s push them a bit, and you’ll see. See, see, there, how they torture people. See how they jail people for their religion and their skin color. See how they compromise their principles when they are afraid. They are not different, the way they say they are. They are the same. Their message of freedom is a lie. If you believe it, you will find that their leadership is just as frustrating and awful as our leadership. So you might as well go with the terrible leader you already know. Go with God.”
Every time we allow ourselves to get dirty, we validate our enemies’ assertions about us, and we give them more ammunition. We give aid and comfort to the extremists who need to tear us down to solidify their own positions of power.
Why do you want to give ammunition to our enemies? Why do you hate America?
Checking to see where we are. OK, it’s alright for me to call you on pretty much everything.
If these soldiers are so poorly trained, and if they really didn’t know any better, then what the hell were they doing in country? I was Army myself (4 years). When I was in (1973 to 1977), Geneva Convention training was mandatory. We were told clearly and expicitly that even in combat, we would be held to a certain code of conduct. No one was excused from this training for any reason. We were made to understand that prisoners were to be treated with a certain level of humaneness. We were advised of the penalties under the UCMJ if we failed to comply. This was when we were still reeling from the effects of such things as the My Lai incident years before. The army postion was crystal clear - fight like hell during a battle, but afterwards, there will be no torture, murder, or abuse whatsoever. The threat of being sent to Leavenworth was cited as the deterrant.
That covers training and indoctrination. Now, what about those who simply don’t know any better. What the fuck sort of person doesn’t know better? That is a lame excuse. It should not require mandatory training to know some things are just wrong. It does not take special training for their superiors to know some things should not be tolerated.
To use the words of almost any Sergeant, I don’t want those people in my Army. In short, psychos need not apply.
Next. Iraq had nothing to do with the 9/11 attacks. None. Nada. Zilch. Our own CIA said there were no WMD. Our own Army said there was no evidence of weapons, and no evidence of any program to get or make any.
Finally, if George Orwell was condoning torture and murder of prisoners, then fuck him. However I really and seriously doubt that he have ever condoned it.
I’m pretty sure his reanimated corpse is presently clawing its way out of a grave in Oxfordshire so he can have a word with buttonjockey about using his words to defend Abu Ghraib.
