- I don’t know much about Canada, but the U.S. is, indeed, a Christian country. Anyone watching a high school football game, particularly in the south, or trying to buy beer, or go shopping, or go to the doctor, or anything else on a Sunday would attest to that. Consequently, the OP’s point is almost meaningless. Of course most atheists he encounters were raised in a Christian culture. He might also discover that most Jews, rock and rollers, airplane mechanics, etc. that he meets were ALSO raised in a Christian culture. It’s AMERICA. That’s the way it is here.
- I call my self an atheist, when asked for a label. I simply don’t believe in God. But, the notion that there’s much tolerance for that point of view is a misconception. There have been many many times in my life that my beliefs became known, and I’ve been subject to verbal assault as well as much more subtle ostracism.
- I’m confused by Vileorb’s father’s decision. (I hope this isn’t a hijack) It seems to me that the belief in God is more central to Christian ways of life than it is to Jewish ways of life. (whew, I bet this stirs up stuff that I don’t intend to stir) The trappings of both religions entail much reverence for God and all that goes with it, but on a day to day basis, for Jews, it’s tradition that counts - not the specific trappings of the religion.
- Consequently, while I know I’m Jewish by heritage, and occasionally by traditional activity, I still consider myself an atheist. I don’t know if any Christians can say this.
- Man, what a great way to waste time and learn at the same time - visit the SDMB. I love you, man.
Um, that may be related to Christianity’s reputation as a more-intolerant-than-average religion. Indeed, Peter Gay once argued that Christianity’s intolerance helped explain its success relative to paganism. The Romans allowed the public to worship a fairly wide variety of gods; Christianity permitted the worship of only one.
Islam maintained Mohammed’s stated tolerance for the “People of the Book”, during its expansionary period during the latter part of the first millenium.
And while Buddhists have been known to fight wars (sometimes wars with religious overtones), they have never been known to kill the people that they are trying to convert.
Heck, historically Christians have barely been able to tolerate each other: intra-Christian conflicts have escalated to violence on numerous occasions.
I suspect that atheism is assisted by either a) state promotion (as in Communism) or b) state tolerance (as in Western-style democracies). But then, so is any other belief.
Um… just want to point out, that ‘white’ and ‘Caucasian’ are not synonyms… neither are ‘Christian’ and ‘Caucasian’.
The subject should probably be ‘all atheists are ex-Christians’, and thats not exactly true, because I’m Indian, (and Caucasian), Hindu by birth, and also an atheist.
Anyone who doesn’t believe in God is an Atheist. Most major religions have atleast one God. Therefore, it follows that there will be non-believers in all religions. Atheism doesn’t have anything to do with upbringing.
I apologise if anyone has already brought up these points earlier in the thread, I skimmed through most of it…
S.
grienspace, maybe no one has seriously addressed your hypothesis because no one can figure out exactly what it is.
Just because one raised in a predominantly Christian culture doesn’t mean that their atheism is a result of simply being “anti-Christian,” which many, many atheists aren’t.
Not everyone who lives in a third-world country is non-caucasian/white.
What third-world countries do you mean? I’m not going to look it up right now, but I’m sure there are mainly-Christian third-world countries.
What does the presence of atheists have to do with Christian tolerance? Whether or not Christians tolerate atheists, there are still going to be Christians and Atheists.
And what does any of this have to do with all atheists being caucasian?
I’m sure all of these questions have been addressed in the thread – I don’t recall – but here they are in a nutshell. I’m not trying to pick on you, I just can’t figure out what exactly you’re hypothesizing, and I’m sure some others can’t, either.
Having seen “O Brother, Where are You?” yesterday, I can recommend it wholeheartedly. It did, however, tie into a trend that bugs me a lot and seems to be getting worse: a “Bagger Vance” sort of thing wherein each and every African-American character you see is somehow Deeply Spiritual and Connected to De Lawd in an instinctive and simple way that eludes the smartass yet unfulfilled white folk around him. OK, so Tommy sold his soul to the Devil but that’s still kinda spiritually preoccupied.
Anyone read "Motel of the Mysteries’? It was a funny picture book by David McClintock (?) about archaeologists a few hundred years in the future discovering a cheap motel from our time, presumably destroyed in a nuclear war, and assigning religious significance to the mundane artifacts therein; the TV, for example, was obviously the center of worship since it was so prominently situated. They seem to do the same thing with non-European artifacts in some museums, especially African ones. Maybe that statue over there tied into the ancestor worship rites or whatever, but maybe the artist just thought he’d make something beautiful? It does give the impression that everybody in Tribe X got the same beliefs and they’re never questioned or debated or studied.
I’d like to suggest that the reason Christians are tolerant of atheists in the United States today is not due to their benevolent hearts, but rather to a little document called the bill of rights. When considering the tolerence level of Christians, one might wish to relect on the reason we needed this document to begin with.
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Originally posted by furl
**I lived and travelled in Asia for 3 years, and…
4) What you would not see much of in Asia is the sort of “emphatic atheist” you see on the SDMB. (Just descriptive… :))/
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This is very much what I expected.
Hmm, interesting. Hard (Emphatic) atheism appears far more prevalent in North America today than lets say 40 years ago. Madeleine O’Hare was a big name back then, because she was one of very few publicly professed hard atheists.Perhaps the clearly justified rebellion of the young towards the Vietnam war broke their faith with their elders resulting in the challenge of established faith in North America. Clearly this was a revolutionary time resulting in significant changes in our common culture.
Demolished? whatever. Atheists dopers have repeated referred to the history of christianity when arguing the intolerance of the church. Of course what immediately comes to mind are the crusades at the beginning of the last millenium, the Spanish Inquisition, and the witch hunts of the seventeenth century. Why events of the distant past are relevant to a discussion of Christianity today is beyond me. Whenever atheism and the state came together in the 20th century, horrific persecution resulted. Nazism in Germany(Jews), Communism in the Soviet Union(Jews, Christians, Ukrainians, political objectors),and communism in China today.(I understand some Christian group is being hunted down). No one argues that Islamic countries are models of tolerance and religious freedom, and we all know that the history of India in the 20th century was rife with violence and intolerance between Hindus,Moslems and many other factions which still could erupt into nuclear war
I will accept however that I should have used the term hard atheist instead of just atheist. Perhaps I meant to be even more specific than that. I envisioned the type of person who would promote the knowledge and understanding of the Invisible Pink Unicorn. This “religion” is clearly a lampoon of my faith. Such effort that went into the growth and development of th IPU smacks of hatred, and I find hatred scary.
Well, yes, atheists in the United States do tend to focus on Christianity. Atheist publications in the United States do mention what they see as the injustices or foolishnesses of, say, Hinduism from time to time, but it’s certainy true that it’s not generally their focus. I imagine the dozen humanist, freethought, secularist, and skeptical groups I listed in India tend to reverse that emphasis. Hmmmm…I suspect that grienspace lives in the United States, and not in India.
You think the Invisible Pink Unicorn “smacks of hatred”?!? Good googly moogly! Please don’t read my sig line, then.
This question warrants some further clarification. I used the caucasian term in the title to attract attention. Tongue in cheek .I wish I didn’t. However to prevent anyone thinking that I’m an idiot, it did occur to me that if we can call anyone black, negro or African if they had any African ancesters no matter how white they appeared, then we could claim someone with any caucasian ancestry as caucasian. During the second world war, an American with 1/32nd Japanese ancestry was regarded as Japanese.
Now in Latin America, there are not that many people that can claim pure aboriginal ancestry. On that basis, North America, South America ,Europe, Australia all are continents where caucasian ancestry predominates, and where Christianity predominates as well. SubSahara Africa may be the exception. These are generally Christian countries that I can’t be sure are not dominated be people that can claim caucasian ancestry.
Now to get back to the opening post,which intended to explore atheism as promarily anti-Christian. Hearing the voice of hard atheism primarily attacking Christianity in North America and Europe, it wasn’t much of a stretch to label hard atheism as primarily a caucasian phenomenon.I repeat, the whole caucasian thing was irelevant, and distracting. In future I will be more careful.
Well yes, I never said all Christians were tolerant, but ever since the eighteenth century, western/Christian society has slowly blossomed in the kind of society which we have today, which you must agree is the most free and inclusive of any society on the earh today and perhaps ever. Don’t forget the Bill of Rights was drafted and signed by professed Christians.Do you know of any similar document drafted by atheists?
Sorry, but your sig line is in bold letters and attracts attention. Its very clear where your sympathies are, but it does not insult me, nor does it make me feel you despise me.
I’ve spent some time at an IPU site, long enough to know that these people have no respect for Christians and feel compelled to spend considerable energy to mock their faith.
I do. The Bill of Rights. Thomas Jefferson was widely rumored to be an atheist, so he decided to quelch that rumor by saying he was a deist. Thomas Paine, who helped ignite the Revolution with his pamphlet Common Sense, was an atheist.
And I don’t agree that ours is the most “free” and “inclusive” in our society today. I think that honor should probably be bestowed on a country in Western Europe or Scandinavia. We don’t hear too much about racism or anti-atheist bigotry there, and citizens are given just as many, if not more, freedoms than Americans have.
Sorry, I was responding to the post two before mine. I loaded the page before you added your latest comment.
Here is a prominent atheist who is certainly not caucasion.
The principal drafter and sponsor of the Bill of Rights was James Madison. According to the Britannica “Madison never became a church member, but in maturity he expressed a preference for Unitarianism.” Other sources commonly refer to him as a Deist. The U.S. Bill of Rights drew heavily on Virginia’s Declaration of Rights, whose principal author was George Mason. Some sources indicate that Mason too may have been a Deist or Unitarian.
Seriously, grienspace, where do you live? (I don’t mean your address, just “what country?”)
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In his critique of religion, “The Age of Reason” Thomas Paine writes " I believe in God, and no more." He also writes here “…and I hope for happiness beyond this life”
I’ll take the man at his word. certainly he was accused of being an atheist,and fortunately he was tolerated. -
Well I won’t argue with you. I never specifically referred to America, but western society. After all, I live in Canada
I didn’t say all of them were “professed Christians”, and I am making assumptions based on references to God etc. in the constitution/bill of rights/declaration. Trust me, I am not a scholar on the religous beliefs of the founding fathers. But in light of the climate of the day, I doubt you’ll hear of a self professed atheist among them.To say the founding fathers were devout Christians would certainly be erroneous as well. Certainly, every president in my lifetime has found it politically expedient to profess his Christianity, or at least a belief in God.
By the way, I live in Canada and like Madison I never became a church member or go to church,
I checked him out and sorry, no cigar. He is clearly black and so are a lot of others as evident from the link you cited but he clearly exhibits caucasian features in his face, and his great great great great grand daddy could have been Old man Finley.