All the Dems have flaws, none are as good as Obama, all are better than Trump!

Politics & Elections
1

All the Dems have flaws, none are as good as Obama, all are better than Trump!

So seriously, every Dem has flaws. Many have many flaws. Not one is close to as bad as Trump are they? Isn’t a steaming pile of crap better than Trump?

I like Bernie, he’s freaking ancient and is a socialist that really only canvases with the Dems and really isn’t for gun control (not that I rate this one as a big issue). He is polling as beating Trump, will probably do better than HRC in the rust belt and will of course carry the blue states. Polls are showing he’ll beat Trump. The gun issue might actually help him a little.

Biden is almost as old, seems more befuddle, and has never won in 35 years of trying now. He is a gaff machine. He seems to be a choice Wall Street, Big Business & Insurance Co. all liked. I might like him the least of the major candidates. But damn, better than Trump by a metric shit ton.

Warren, actually 70 already. Not campaigning all that well. I like a lot of what she says, but she doesn’t seem to thrust and parry as well as Sanders or Buttigieg. Also still leading Trump in National Polls.

Buttigieg, young, youngest ever if he wins. Limited experience as just a mayor of a minor city. Campaigns well and is ahead of Trump. Seems to engender a lot of dislike. Has to overcome being gay, probably not going to hurt him in blue states and seems poised to do well in the rust belt.

Klobuchar, not really polling well Nationally but ahead of Trump. Good chance she’ll bring home her state which will help. Reputation as a bad boos, but seems to speak well so far.

Bloomberg, a lot of dislike for the ex-Mayor of NYC but he is Green, he brings a lot of money to fight Trump. Wall Street & etc. seem very willing to support him and currently leading Trump by a good amount. The Stop & Frisk and Nanny State policies are going to hurt him but again, better than Trump by a lot.

And the Rest…

So whoever gets the Nomination, if you’re a moderate/liberal Republican, an Independent or a Democrat of any stripe, please rally behind Not-Trump 2020!

2

I don’t think the socialists or those who pander to the socialists are worse than Trump. And Trump is pretty bad. The more moderate dems seem tolerable but there is a seat or 2 or 3 on the Supreme Court at stake and a ton of other spots on the courts to fill. So, I’m not sure how many right of center are willing to give up the courts when locking them up for a generation or so is so close.

3

Bernie is better than Obama.

4

I would disagree with the subject line.

I am a touch right of center, swing voting, nominal but not very Republican. The RINO label is accurate. I wear it with pride. I am the kind of free trading, globalist that both Trump and the far left denigrate. I was never that sold on Obama. I would have preferred either Biden or Clinton in 2008. Obama did better than I expected in office, but still was only mediocre to solid on my evaluation criteria by the end. If we were using grades maybe C or C+. If I was feeling generous B-. He certainly didn’t compare well to the two favorites presidents in my lifetime - the elder Bush and Clinton.* He didn’t affect who I voted for in congressional races.

Biden seems to be past peak but he is someone I have long supported and might have voted for if he got the nomination in previous attempts. His inclusion on the ticket, and use in key roles as VP, made me more comfortable with Obama. I would still rank him as likely better than Obama for at least one term.

Klobuchar is very interesting and I would clearly put her above Obama in 2008 before he had any experience in the hot seat. She would have been at least competitive against any major GOP primary candidate of the last couple cycles. She would get my vote against most of them. Kasich or McCain would give her a run for my vote. Head to head, the campaigns Obama ran would have me voting Klobuchar over him easily.

Buttigieg is not ready for prime time. I would have preferred 2008 Obama based on experience. 2008 Obama had some progressive content to his rhetoric that made me question him. Call it about dead heat with 2008 Obama but I would easily support an Obama third term over him if term limits didn’t exist.

Sanders is fuckawful by my evaluation criteria. He is fuckawful for dominantly the same foreign policy reasons i use to rate Trump fuckawful. Those are the issues I mostly use to select a president. He will get my vote against Trump because he is a little more predictable for our allies and regional partners. Predictably awful beats what the fuck did he tweet to change US foreign policy this morning. His proposals that make me grind my teeth also require more Congressional support. That makes Sanders easier to marginalize and stop once elected. Because of that Sanders is a hair better than Trump for me, but much worse than Obama who was fine if not great. Advantage GOP for House races to obstruct Sanders, though. Like Trump, but not Obama, I will hope he is a one term president and vote to limit the damage he can do. The same advantage I have given to Democrats to obstruct Trump switches over to obstructing Sanders.

Warren shares most of my issues with Sanders. She is at least less of an ideologue. That flexibility makes her a hair better by my criteria than Sanders but no Obama. Advantage GOP in House races and I still probably would vote against her in 2024. Better than Trump is an extremely low bar. Clear advantage GOP in House races to obstruct if I have to hold my nose and vote for her.

I will be voting in the Democratic primary this year to try and maximize my influence on who NotTrump is. I would rather be able to just pick whichever candidate was closest to my politics… but Sander or Warren vs Trump may rule that out. I will adapt if the moves to abandon my vote continue.

  • Yes I am aware that my politics are… abby normal. :stuck_out_tongue:
5

Um, no. Bernie is a vile bag of despicable shit on his good days. His only redeeming quality is that he’s better than Trump. I’ll vote for Shitbag Sanders should he get the nomination, but I’ll also have a couple bottles of Jack Daniels ready when we get blown out, lose the House, and lose endless state legislatures so we can have another ten years of gerrymandering.

But, the revolution.

6

  1. Yes, they’re all better than Trump.

  2. I’d argue that Warren is better than Obama. Warren understands what she’s up against with today’s GOP. Obama never seemed to grok what was happening to the GOP, how complete and unified their opposition was becoming - had become, by the end of his first year in office. He had a theory of how he was going to change that, and it was a reasonable theory going in. But by the end of 2009, it was already dead, and he never quite caught up with that.

7

Is the OP discussing 2008 Obama, or 2016 Obama? 2008 Obama had nearly 8 years experience as a state senator, and 3 years experience as a US senator. Experience-wise, he would be behind Biden, Sanders, Klobuchar, Warren and Bloomberg, and ahead of Buttigieg. Policy-wise, I’d have put him as firm but not far left, meaning I’d prefer him over Sanders and Warren, but not as much as Biden, Klobuchar, Buttigieg or Bloomberg. Character-wise, I don’t recall him having any issues which puts him well ahead of Biden, slightly ahead of Warren, Sanders and Bloomberg, and equivalent to Klobuchar (I’m disregarding the mean boss rumours) and Buttigieg. Personality-wise, he outshines the lot with only Buttigieg and Bloomberg having anything like the cool factor. So at this point, I’d put 2008 Obama in my top-3 leading Democratic choices, in the mix with Bloomberg and Klobuchar. I’d probably rank them 1)Klobuchar, 2)Bloomberg, and 3)Obama giving Klobuchar the edge based on her strength as a senator. However, his charisma would probably have him on top with most Americcan voters as happened in 2008. 2016 Obama, supposing he could run in 2020, with eight years experience as president, a move towards the centre-left, and a strong economic record would easily be my first choice.

An interesting alternate worlds question is where would 2020 Obama be if he had stayed in the Senate? Suppose Bill Richardson had won the 2008 Democratic nomination and presidential election and had a term similar to Obama’s actual term, followed by the Clinton-Trump 2016 election. Where would US Senator Obama, with 15 years experience as a US senator be if he was running against the current Democrats? His further Senate experience would put him in the lead for me, edging Klobuchar on experience and beating her on personality, although I’d probably like her policies slightly better.

Throwing Trump into the mix is difficult, because for me the asshole factor outweighs everything else. I don’t know how much weight to give Trump’s political experience as his three years as president has been so disruptive. I think trying to view his administration objectively while ignoring his personality is impossible. For example, I think the chaos in his cabinet and with his chiefs-of-staff reflects a poor administration. But that’s a direct result of the asshole factor. Politically, I don’t disagree with a high-level view of his policies. However, the implementation of them has generally been wretched. It’s like whenever there looks like a reasonable way of implementing a policy, Trump tries to find an alternative that will piss off as many people as possible. Again, the asshole factor. I’ll be nice and merely state that Trump would come last in a ranking of character. I guess some people like his personality, but I’m not one of them. So yeah, ranking Trump against the current Democrat contenders, or whichever version of Obama, I do think he comes in dead last.

8

Me too.

Candidate Obama was flawed and not as good as President Obama.

A lot of your subject is about perceptions which are subjective and also an illusion painted by various competing campaigns and newschannels that are trying to paint the candidates as they see fit , the reality differs, except for Trump, he was a beast during the campaign and is today.

9

IMHO you’re correct, but Tulsi is way closer to Trump than she is to the other Democrats.

10

Trump hasn’t been a President yet. All he has been is an asshole. That’s his only ‘skill’.

11

Unity 2020

12

Which candidates are on your list of “socialists and those who pander to the socialists”?

13

Yeah, I mistyped. I think the socialist wing is worse than Trump. I lump Warren and Sanders in that category. Free everything and a wealth tax is not something I can support.

14

You do not seem to understand the positions of those two candidates, nor the definition of “socialist”.

15

Isn’t Minnesota pretty reliably blue anyway?

16

True, but it was surprisingly close in 2016.

I don’t think Amy has a chance at the Nom anyway. But you never know; and no matter what, better than Trump.

17

Warren is definitely not a socialist. She addressed this specifically at a rally I attended. She said “capitalism is great but it does not work for specific industries, like healthcare or education”

Bernie, I think, believes he could create a more socialist system that would work better than what we have. I disagree with him on that, but I think he knows sweeping political change happens in tiny increments, and he would only push for incremental change if president, so effectively Bernie and Warren would push for similar policies, but with different end goals.

Bernie would push for change with the ultimate goal of a more socialist leaning economy. Warren would push for change with the ultimate goal of capitalism with a stronger safety net and easier opportunity to advance on the capitalist ladder.

18

That’s fine. In my opinion which is the opinion that counts for me, they are more socialist than I care for and I think they are more dangerous than Trumpand I think Trump is a nut. I will not vote for de-facto open borders, a wealth tax, complete student forgiveness, etc.

19

I think they have some good ideas. But I think they take some of those ideas way too far. And once you have an entitlement in place you can’t get rid of it.

20

Sure. As soon as a Dem candidate endorses the Second Amendment, commits to no gun bans or registration, I’ll be happy to jump on board.