now of course the actual statement is made (rather than the dishonest ‘questions’ without any clear idea what the hell was the real thought), then if one wants one can read this article about the event that makes the argument that some are angry about no great attention or international outpouring of support to the Turkish victims of the Ankara (that is Turkey for the ignorant ones) bombing by the DAESH, that the Turkish football culture are assholes (or the author says can not abide by moments of silence…), and there is a popular football chant taken from the old military chants of the Ottomans,
I am not a turkish football fan, I am as ready to credit the idea that the Turkish hooligan-fans just wanted to be offensive to the Greeks.
I’ve interacted with FP fairly often, and while I strongly disagree with most of his politics, I think he’s being attacked for bizarre and unfair reasons in this thread.
His initial response was to this post by Andros, #213:
(bolding mine)
That post is, imho, fundamentally flawed. It’s a terrible analogy. It really says nothing one way or other.
FP responded and pointed out what a bad analogy that was. He did NOT then proceed to say “I have therefore proved that those chanting Muslims were murderes”. He did not say, or claim to say, anything grander or bigger at all. He just said that Andros’s analogy, and the very specific argument crafted around it, were flawed.
And then people got mad at him for basically picking such a small and specific place to plant his flag. But that’s ridiculous. It has to be not only allowed but encouraged on the SDMB to call out bad arguments wherever they are found, whether you agree with the larger point the bad-arguer is trying to make, or disagree with it, or have no opinion on it.
Does it mean anything that Turkish football fans were chanting Muslim-sounding things during a proposed moment of silence? Beats me. I have no idea. I claim no opinion on, or expertise about, that issue. But immediately dismissing, as Andros attempted to do, because NFL fans chant “fuck Seattle” at US football games is ridiculous. And the fact that it can not be so dismissed doesn’t mean it can not be dismissed for other, non-spurious, reasons.
Of course it is, yes, and it does not. You found me out; I’m notoriously poor at analogies, and prefer my snark in the Pit to be of the simple-minded sort.
Again, hardly an argument, specific or otherwise. But I’m flattered.
To be fair, I think people were frustrated at what appeared to be deliberately oblique pedantry. It was certainly oblique, though not deliberately so. And I’m sure F-P already knows he can come across as pedantic.
Again, I’m flattered that you read so much into my bullshit. It was not my intention to dismiss anything. It was my intention, admittedly poorly-crafted and simple-minded, to agree with a previous post that football supporters are pricks world-wide. And further, it was my intention to insinuate that *assuming *Turkish fans support actual death and destruction while giving American or European fans a pass smacks of cultural elitism.
(Also, MLS, not NFL. Fewer brain injuries, more fake flopping on the ground.)
Max, that would be a meaningful defense of FP if there hadn’t been numerous subsequent attempts to provide analogical and rhetorical explanations of why the chanting wasn’t anything from which Westerners should or could draw any conclusions. FP largely chose to be pissy and parsimonious instead of addressing the point.
And frankly there’s two other things going against your take. First, poor analogy aside, andros’ point was both crystal clear and absolutely relevant (and correct), and one he’d made very clearly in posts to this thread prior to making the analogy and almost immediately subsequent to it. Second, read the fucking thread. That’s not the first picayune distraction FP’s perpetrated just in this thread. (See his earlier exchange with Kimstu for a good example.)
Ah, for fuck’s sake. Call me an idiot or an asshole, fine. But I was not “JAQing”. Someone who is JAQing would not actually lay out their position, as I have explicitly, twice. So piss off.
I read the cite in your follow-up post. It now looks like my position was incorrect. I was probably wrong. Wasn’t the first time, won’t be the last. Thanks for the cite - that’s kind of what I was sincerely asking for in my initial post in this thread.
I honestly disagree. The immediate surface reading of his post was something like “who are we to judge? we’re just as bad, because we say just as awful things at our sports events. And you’re kind of racist for judging at all.” But this kind of underscores my point. If you respond to what I just said, and then I respond to what you just said, and back and forth (which might be interesting, because, hey, arguing about things is fun) then we’re pedantically focusing on one tiny little aspect of the issue. Which is absolutely fine, and not something we should be judged for.
As for whether it was correct, well, who cares? A flawed analogy that is supporting the eventual right position is still flawed, and can still be reasonably called out as flawed. What FP did not do, as far as I can tell, was call out a flawed analogy, and then say “and this analogy being flawed proves X” in any fashion.
It’s also worth noting that when Ramira posted the article linked a few posts back, FP read it and agreed that it made a convincing case that the chanting was not significant. Which is exactly what you would expect a reasonable and open-minded person to do.
Taking a step back for a second, suppose that you are confronted with people in a foreign culture doing something that seems evil or repugnant. One possible response is:
“That appears evil and repugnant, therefore I know that it is evil and repugnant”.
Another is:
“Well, that appears evil and repugnant. But who am I to judge, there may be mitigating circumstances, and it’s impossible to ever pass judgment on anything, cultural relativity is the best!”
But I don’t think either of those is correct. I think the most reasonable response is: “Well, that appears to be evil and repugnant. And since humans all over the world are so similar in so many ways, and because there are certain values that I hold to be universal, I will tentatively view it as evil and repugnant, but am willing to be convinced that either my understanding of what occurred is flawed, or there are sufficient cultural differences at play to make my initial view of the situation incorrect. And if for some reason I’m in a position where my views on the topic actually matter, like if I’m an elected official as opposed to some joker on a message board, then I have a responsibility to actually dig in and research the situation before passing judgment.”
For instance, if I learn that in some country, women aren’t allowed to drive, that makes me think less of that country. I don’t need to go into a “ahh, everyone is different and special and unique” tizzy. But I’m willing to have explained to me why it’s actually meaningful and not awful and not sexist (although off the top of my head I’m having a hard time coming up with an imaginary reason that would suffice.)
Are you talking about the business with the opinion polls and whether or not that was 13% of all Muslims worldwide? Because honestly, and again bearing in mind that I have generally disagree with FP on most things and am a long-standing member of the board’s liberal community, I felt like he was more right than wrong in that exchange as well.
If I say “I interviewed 1000 US residents from each of 10 different geographical locations, and 60% of those I interviewed said X, therefore I claim that US residents as a whole tend to believe X”, there are various legitimate criticisms. One of them is NOT “well, that’s only 10000 US residents total, and 60% of 10000 is only 6000, and there are 300 million US residents, so you really only interviewed 0.0000002% of US residents” (or whatever).
well you did not say anything clearly at first when I responded.
it was only much later, so you can perhaps forgive me for being annoyed at the idea of “refutations” when I could not tell clearly.
so sorry then, it is then maybe a bit misunderstanding and the nerves are raw in this times.
in any case I find it almost as bad what I suspect happened -the stupid turkish drunks hooligans thought it was cool to be maximally offensive to the Greeks for no good reason.
but I tend to find I do not like the rabid football fans anyway so I am not surprised at stupid ugly behaviour.
No problem. I hate DAESH as much as any sane person.
I already knew about the looooong history of antipathy between Turk and Greek. What I found surprising from another cite mentioned in the Comments section of your cite was that in an earlier match, these shithead fans disrupted their own moment of silence for the Ankara attacks. :smack:
I think we can have no doubt they are disgusting idiots.
what kinds of disgusting idiots, there are many choices.
Not really, fallacies of the exclusion.
(add some to the above since it obviously was not so many so be recorded well)
[ul]
[li]or they may have actually been doing a very stupid football chant they use that includes this (as cited),[/li][li]or they may be the drunk assholes who this time got it in their stupid primitive drunk minds (this is istanbul) it would be funny to scare and offend the Greeks by shouting this (if it was not part of the football chant[/li][/ul]
but as fuji is noting, we can be certain many of the turkish istanbul football fans-hooligans do have a long tradition of being complete assholes (as in disrupting even their own Turkish moment of silence for the Ankara bombing by DAESH).
so we can have doubts about what obscure motivations of the hooligans, but we can be very certain they are asshole hooligans with no respect and no culture.
Which is why I don’t doubt FP’s sincerity. I’m not accusing him of disingenuity, I’m accusing him of supercilious immateriality in his focus. He’s correct in his narrow pedantic exercises but they’re absolutely fucking irrelevant to the actual thing his targets are trying to discuss.
I was discussing the exchange about whether violence is inherent to Islam. In which FP (I think, I’m frankly unsure) pretty much agreed with Kimstu that it is not, but managed a 20 post exchange arguing about the semantics of how to say that. Or, conversely, spent a 20 post exchange without demonstrating his interpretation of ‘inherency’ was more correct or supporting either position on the question.
There was a person quoted in the linked article that gave a far more likely reason. The Turkish football fans were wondering why they should express solidarity with France when all of the earlier attacks by Daesh have been pretty much ignored in the western press. No one called for a minute of silence for dead Syrians, Lebanese, Jordanians, etc.
