I’ve been having this debate with a friend of mine regarding the definition of an Alpha-male in a human society.
He claims that in our advanced society, the Alpha-male is not necessarily the leader of a pack, or a country in that matter. The Alpha-male, to him, is just the strongest, fastest, and fittest person around, which to me sounded rather warped and primitive.
IMO the Alpha-male in any hierarchy, whether Man or animal, is always the leader, for it is the Alpha-male who always commands respect.
Then he goes on this analogy about how Man relies on shrewedness and popularity to become the leader of a country, and as a result of this he may not be the Alpha-male.
Well the argument ended rather inconclusively because he kept using analogies that didn’t make much sense and changing the definition of the problem to suit his own argument. Well I’m no debator so I can’t really out-talk him, and was hoping someone here can help me, cos that fella really needs some ego-dampening: his intransigent belief that he is an Alpha-male is pissing me off
I think that’s where I’d part company with your logic. With dogs, the only way to show respect is to allow Alpha to be the leader, so the two are perforce one in the same. In humans, we can follow a leader without respecting him at all. Consider if you will the President of the United States. And before anybody jumps on me for being partisan, consider if you will the last umpteen Presidents of the the United States. All were leaders. Precious few were respected by anyone but their own partisans.
In short, I would define (if pressed) the human sociological equivalent of the Alpha as the most respected person in a group, the one whose voice silences all conversations, and the one whose advice is taken when given. That’s the respect side of things, because that, I believe, is the underlying quality that makes a canine Alpha what it is.
BTW, “Alpha male” is sexist. While wolf packs do normally arrange themselves with males as Alphas, there are times when the most dominant wolf in a pack is a female.
Hope this helps.
Oh, and I think you’re headed into IMHO territory.
Really? As far as I know, “alpha male” just means the dominant (or most desireable) male in a group. Even a female-led group can still have its alpha-male. BTW, there are “alpha females” too, IIRC.
Welcome to the SDMB! Human society is generally more complex than most other animal “societies”. Unless you’re in a small tribe, there probably is no overall alpha-male for humans. Beauty/respect is in the eye of the beholder. Many leaders are hated, but on the other hand, they probably had some popularity to become leaders in the first place. People are attracted to others who are healthy/strong/fast, but that is not the only criteria used in mate selection. (But certainly those traits make for good first impressions. These traits also go a long way in other aspects of human life besides mate selection.) Some people are attracted to money & power. Others to kindness & intelligence. Etc.
In short, human societies are too big to have an overall alpha-male like small animal groups have. But we are not completely separated from our animal ancestry.
Anyone have any insight into the lifestyles of small tribes? My impression is that even they do not have a “winner takes all” alpha male, but perhaps the alpha male dynamics are stronger in that situation.
-Do not approach Astroboy while he is feeding or mating.
-Move slowly when in the vicinity of Astroboy
-If Astroboy starts to smoke, move away!
-Do not attempt to dissuade Astroboy from his beliefs, no matter how assinine they may be.
-Do not taunt Astroboy.
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-Do not expose Astroboy to excessive amounts of BS.
-When Astroboy says, “I gotta go.” he means NOW, dammit!
-Supply Astroboy with excessive amounts of female companionship.
-Do not supply Astroboy with excessive amounts of male companionship.
-Astroboy is best appreciated after one has consumed at least 1 pint of grain alcohol.
-Astroboy can always use a pint of grain alcohol.
-Do not ask Astroboy to eat fish, or any fish related products.
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-Astroboy does not care about the state of your psyche… when speaking with Astroboy, always be of good cheer!
-If you have some illegal substance, offer a bit of it to Astroboy.
-Send Astroboy any photographs of boobies that may come your way.
I hope that helps.
[sup]Maybe this should be included in the SDMB FAQ?[/sup]
For my money, I agree with you. And I hate to do it, but sometimes sports analogies work best.
The alpha-male quality in humans is “leadership.” The team captain (a position which has no official status in most sports, but is usually elected by the team) is not always the top offensive or defensive player, but exhibits qualities of leadership such that the other players on the squad instinctively look to him.
You’ll note that many of the most successful managers and head coaches were not star players (think Whitey Herzog and Tommy Lasorda in baseball) while many top athletes (Ted Williams) did not succeed as managers.
Wow, everyone here has like a few thousand posts…I feel like such a newbie
Anyway, thanks for the warm welcome.
I had this idea that the alpha-male is always the physically dominant one in a pack, and because of this superiority he commands respect and attains a position of leadership, and not because one is a leader that he/she is seen as an alpha.
Well, I feel that the alpha-male concept is rather primitive, and as a result physical dominance is what the pack looks for. Take any type of animal, for example. During mating season the male vie for their right to mate through combat. The triumphant one gets his reward in the form of a mating partner, territory, and respect. Thus in the animal kingdom, it all boils down to who can run the fastest, who can leap the highest, etc.
Well, if leadership in a human society is not determined by respect, then what is it determined by? We follow a leader we do not respect simply because most of us do not have the opportunity to overthrow the (incompetent)leader ourselves. This is unlike in the animal kingdom, IMO, because any strong male is able to challenge for leadership.
How, then, are leaders in our society chosen from the millions of candidates? I feel that it all boils down to opportunities, which totally defies the alpha-male concept of the animal kingdom.
Sorry if I’m sounding rather long-winded here. I always become long-winded in discussions
Not to be too much of a smart-ass, but the alpha male thing usually only applies to pack or hearding animals; mostly mammals, some birds… and not even all the time then - there are many female dominated societies.
Alpha males are overthrown rather often; similar to boxing champions. Doesn’t matter if you’re the overall fastest or strongest, make a mistake and loose the wrong fight, even if it’s just once, and you’re out with a bruised ego, and come-backs are hard. The most succesful alpha males are the ones who fight as seldom as possible, relying on some sort of intimidation or body language to keep the peace once he’s on the thrown. The job’s not all it’s cracked up to be either; often the alpha male is the one who has to do all or most of the fighting when intruders come, he has to be on the lookout for them and watch over the flock, not to mention keeping an eye on all the young wise-guys who are daily plotting to oust him.
That alone doesn’t guarentee you all the breeding rights either. There’s always a little fooling around behind the bushes out of his sight, especially when he’s preoccupied patroling the boundries and pissing on things (what do ya think all the other guys do when he’s not looking… twiddle their thumbs?) - Genetic studies have shown that up to 30% of the salmon eggs in a nest aren’t fertilized by the male in the nest, and he only leaves for a second or two!!
It’s difficult to make a direct comparison between humans and a lion pride, and it’s getting a bit too late for my brain process much more here.
The subject of political leaders is an interesting one. I suspect that body language (and even ‘chemistry’ in all senses of the word) plays a large part in the influence alphas exert on their followers. I reckon the cold eye of the TV camera filters out much of this personal charm.
I don’t know any politicians personally but I suspect that within their personal cliques, they ARE the alpha. And if you or I met one, I bet they could turn their charm/dominance thing on pretty easily, and I’m in no doubt about the outcome. You might not like them or want to follow them but you’d almost certainly feel intimidated by them rather than the other way round. They do this sort of thing for a living, remember!
(I’ll Cite “Primary Colors” by Anonymous as (flimsy) evidence - the Clinton/Stanton figure there is definitely alpha material).
Back to monny’s question: what is an alpha-male? IMHO “strongest, fastest and fittest” is, as you say, too simplistic. These are all useful skills an alpha could use to his/her advantage, but they’re not necessarily decisive. Intelligence is probably a more important alpha skill than physical prowess. Also, (from personal observation - I’m no alpha but have observed many who are) the ability not to be distracted from the pursuit of alpha-ness by unimportant issues such as solving difficult problems - always leave these to your lieutenants.
How about reading Machiavelli’s “The Prince” and next time your friend brings the subject up, quote knowledgably from it
Physical dominance is important, but it’s not always the case that the physically strongest animal in a pack will dominate. Observations of the Gombe chimpanzees have shown some examples of alliances of physically weaker chimpanzees defeating a stronger alpha, and gaining that status themselves. Goodall also reports of a chimp managing to get hold of a metal plate that, when pounded on by a rock, would make a loud noise, and that chimp, because he was able to make loud noises and intimidate other chimps, was able to have a position of dominance for a time. However, there’s no question that physical strength is important. Dominant pack members usually become dominant because they stop anyone who might take that dominance from them, and dominance usually means better access to food or sex, and the ability to distribute them. That’s why your dog begs you for food instead of you begging your dog for food.
