I just finished the last book in the series of Turtledove’s “Timeline 191 series”. It is based on the idea that during the US Civil War, a copy of Lee’s Special Order 191 was NOT lost and captured by the Union, thereby providing a Confederate victory.
The novels stretch through the late 1800s and through World War II with the CSA as a separate country. I was wondering if any other dopers out there our fans of this series and would like to discuss. Thanks!
There are a bunch of us on here who read the books. So, what in particular do you want to talk about? 
Captain Lemur considered what Sgt Jtgain said, then nodded reluctantly. But if the teeming masses wanted to discuss timeline 191 there wasn’t anything they could do about it.
Well, I guess I wanted a sounding board for some of the thoughts about the series. I guess if you haven’t read all of the books, there will be some spoilers here.
I thought the whole thing was well-written and very down to earth. It really gave me an insight into the German people and how they bought into an idea like Hitler.
Pinkard’s character in the book was a regular guy, with a regular boring job, and a (he thought) happy home. Then, when you don’t realiize it, he is running a genocide camp.
It made me think, as an American, that it was only by the grace of God that we didn’t walk down the same path that Hitler did.
Did you all feel that it was a plausible series?
What about the execution of hostages? I found that very disturbing, how the U.S. simply murdered innocent civilians because of the actions of another. Could we be capable of that? Imagine if we did that in Iraq today? :eek:
Is there a Jake Featherston wanna-be a possibility today?
Many other questions…
Diggit nodded wisely. But, since he was far too fair-skinned, he decided against stepping out in the sun. As it was, standing in the shadow, smearing (don’t-remember-what) on his skin, he resembled a lobster far more than he liked.
*Got you all now
Sgt jtgain decided that this was nothing to flabble about…
I just reread the entire series, from How Few Remains to In at the Death, one of the more depressing literary exercises I’ve ever done. Depressing because this is not a world I would care to live in (but then, most AH’s tend to be dystopian, for whatever reason (likely because they tend to deal with real-world “bad guys” (the South, the Nazi’s) winning their wars)).
I find the general historiography to be very believable, though there are quibbles with some of the particulars. To me, the most believable part was the Marxist rebellion amongst the CSA’s Negro population, both in how it came about to its inevitable conclusion.
Featherston and Potter were my favorite characters, and I cheered when he finally killed off Nellie and Sylvia.
*As an up-through-the-hawse mustang, JohnT felt honored to be asked about the books, considering that he went into the navy with no more desire than to not look at the world from behind a mule.
Reading his words, Lemur866 looked at him curiously: “You’re not exactly what I expected.” he said.
JohnT smiled. “You’re the one trained to command. I’m just glad to make Lt. j.g.”*
My biggest complaint with the overall-quite-enjoyable series is that to a certain extent, the most interesting question is what happens NOW. Through the last several books, there are many people talking about what the USA will do if it wins the war, how they’ll stop an even WORSE war from happening in another 20 years, etc. So what WILL they do? What version of Reconstruction could possibly work after 80 years? I mean, IRL Germany after WWII turned out pretty well, all things considered… but I don’t think the average German hated joe American or joe British the way the CSA hated the USA… plus, there was the whole east/west partitioning thing going on.
I think there’s a holiday in Australia called “Remembrance Day”, and it always makes me think of the series.
I’m jtgain, and I’m here to tell you the truth! The truth is, that the damnyankees don’t want us to (insert whatever the latest demand was). They only say that stuff to think we’re licked. Well, we’ll never be licked, we never have. They said we was licked the last time, but if it wasn’t for the niggers and generals running the war, we would have won.
Let them keep it up, and they will see who will be licked!
Oh yeah, another thing. At any point in the series, did Jake Featherston ever have sex with a woman, love/lust after a woman, or have any interest in any woman at all? Do you think that Turtledove did this to make him seem somewhat inhuman?
Even Lulu Maddox, as she was dying told Featherston that she knew he never wanted her “that way” which was all I remember about JF’s sexual history. Maybe all the guy needed was to get laid and he wouldn’t have been a maniac??
I think it was mentioned once, possibly, that he went to a whorehouse once or twice.
However, his “sexlessness” was also noted (by Potter, IIRC). And I’m more sure about the second sentence than the first.
I want to say that Jake schtupped Anne Colleton at some point during her attempt to regain political relevancy. I might be wrong, and I checking it would involve flipping through endless stories about poor brave Mary McGregor carrying on her father’s fight against the Americans, or how Lucien Galtier found curses based on religious sentiments more offensive than those based on physical functions.
While I was drawn in by Turtledove’s stories, and I read all of the books faithfully, as the series wore on, I couldn’t help but notice that Turtledove had essentially one story for each character, which he felt the need to rehash for the first third of each book, only to be reinforced by more of the same for the remainder. Turtledove must have thought that the only real way to properly tell the story of a n entire time period was to show a representative of the mindset of every person alive during that time.
I think that he could have told his story just as well through the yes of a lot fewer people. Perhaps even one person, but at the most, three. (I would nominate Featherstone, Moss and Hip Rodriguez)
Don’t ever kid yourself, we could have done the exact same thing if history was different. Turtledove uses fiction to make this crystal clear, and anyone who denies it is using the “it’s just speculative fiction” excuse to avoid facing the dark half of their psyche. We’re not any different or better than the Germans that were corrupted so readily in their horrible situation. If that happened here, we’d be giving the Germans lessons.
The series has gone on too long.
What if the South had Won the Civil War is a much-debated question. It is an interesting question. It is not worth eleventy-seven books.
Very simply, the world of the alternate timeline should get more and more divergent from our own. The author’s attempts to keep his timeline on a parallel track with our own are obvious and heavy-handed.
The simple fact is the CSA would have been a much poorer, less industrialized, less educated place than it is portrayed. World War I (or II) would not have happened as depicted.
Most alternative history does better as a short story or novel. I read the series, but sometimes I wonder why.
As for Jake Featherstone, a person like that could arise anywhere. When conditions lend themselves to political extremism, extremists come forward.
The entire Canada thing was quite a bore, wasn’t it? I found it curious that hundreds of pages were wasted on the McGregor’s/Galtier’s/Moss’s but when Canada rebelled during WW2… very little was written about it. “Oh, look: Canada rebelled. Meanwhile, back in Richmond…”
And I don’t think that Jake had Ann… IIRC, she noted that he didn’t notice her “as a woman” at least once or forty times.
Agreed - it also seems to me to be a cheat to use our “actual” history as the entire plot line. For a while it’s fun matching events and characters between Germany and the CSA but ultimately its boring. Not helped by poor writing style. 
You’ll have gathered I’m not a fan. I like AH but Turtledove doesn’t do it for me and I don’t think this is even his best work.
Well, that’s his biggest schtick. IIRC, he has written no less than four series based around the concept of the “Alternative WW2”: 191, WorldWar (aliens invade during WW2), the Pearl Harbor books (where Japan was able to invade PH in 1941) and the Darkness series (WW2 fought with magic).
Dr. Fidelius changed his clothes after the meeting in his special room off his office, and suddenly realized he was in the wrong series of novels…
I wasn’t even intending to state that the Canadian part of the novel was more or less boring and repetitive than any other given part of it; I could have mentioned Sam Carsen and his bloody zinc-oxide, or Flora Blackford realizing that bipartisanship would be necessary to win the war.
But you’re absolutely right, Canada and the West pretty much disappeared as the series ground on, only mentioned in passing. I suppose we should be thankful, Turtledove could have written another thousand pages easily, adding in the details.
I enjoyed it. Definitely not his best work, but also far from his worst. (The Darkness series has that covered IMO.) He did have a few good reasons for the long series though. 3 girls in college at once. 
His single novels are his best stuff for AH. In The Presence of Mine Enemies and Ruled Britannia are some of his best.