Am I a hypocritical little Lib?

I suspect that 16 and Pregnant has a much bigger influence on its viewers’ outlook on their reproductive choices than any political source. And I think jocks, frats, queen bees, skaters, goths, punks, nerds and just about every other subgroup one could mention develop their attitudes toward each other and life in general more from the media than the news. (Except maybe the Model UN people).

Well, the most obvious difference thus far is that McCroskey self-identified with horrorcore, while no actual connection between Loughner and Fox or Palin has been found.

Which remote tyrannical government imposed a tax on Sarah Palin’s tea, or on that nut case in Arizona.

Yes, and if Palin, et. al., were seriously and deliberately advocating the violent overthrow of the government, and standing by that position, that would be another matter entirely.

The debate is really about people who suggest things and then disavow their literal interpretation–"we never imagined, it never occurred to us that anybody would consider it [that way].’’

So you start here and I have to say I completely agree with your point-of-view. Of course, there are small but significant relationships between violent media and violent behavior (Der Trihs is minimizing the relationship probably because he likes video games). Yet you are right, “scapegoating while avoiding problems” is the key thing. Although a meta-analysis of all violent video game work and its relationship to aggression does (sometimes) show there in fact exists a positive relationship, it isn’t shit compared to real issues like bad parenting - child abuse, neglect, indoctrination into violent beliefs.

I do not think this is specific to liberals.

Now that you recognize you are full of shit you have several options.
(1) You can incorporate these events into the world view you reserved for your special protected forms of speech: One real problem was pointed out by Bryan Ekers. The guy seems to be schizophrenic and some combination of circumstances prevented him from getting treatment. This is the case in spite of all the problems he apparently was having. Another real problem was that this guy, like a certain nut named Cho, was able to buy a firearm despite a history of conduct issues. These are the real problems.
(2) You can fully recognize that you are a hypocrite and say, like people all over the planet do, that I want my special groups to be able to say whatever but the group I do not like needs to be shut up. This is perfectly okay and the guiding principle for people in democracies all over the planet.
(3) You can finally realize that you were wrong about Judas Priest and decide that the tiny increment of increased risk to teenagers caused by violent media is worth shitting your pants about and demand all of it be shut down.

These are the ones I can think of. I took #1. I don’t blame all the right wing media for this guy. I blame his unfortunately faulty brain and a poor system for keeping easy access to weapons out of the wrong guy’s hands. I am waiting for more information to decide on the importance of the right wing media to this whole thing. Regardless, even if he followed everything on Fox, word for word, in his deluded head the contribution their rhetoric has made to this event is not worth shutting it down over the value it has to the development of our country.

I think the people that are making the argument that we should blame right wing media have only politics on their mind, and are being kind of disgusting.

I have a serious question: Has anyone, on the SDMB or in the wider world, actually advocated censoring Palin, Beck, et al. as a result of the Tuscon shooting? People have, sometimes successfully, pushed for banning or censoring certain art pieces based on their supposed effect on the impressionable, but I don’t see that happening here…

No, I’m “minimizing” it because there are no such “significant relationships”; if anything, the circumstantial evidence would lean towards video games reducing violence. As opposed to speeches encouraging violence, which has a long and clear history of successfully encouraging violence. As victims of lynchings and pogroms the world over could attest too if they weren’t dead.

Although I think the guy makes too much of the work and I stress I think the relationship is significant but not necessarily causal or very important among “things that lead to increased risk for violence” but take a look at Craig Anderson’s publications. You can at least read the abstracts if you are interested.

It’s odd how you think the influence of images, sounds, thoughts, etc. magically ends at the barrier of your personal interests. Nah, I guess it isn’t. It’s what the thread is about after all.

:rolleyes: No, I think that it matters whether or not something is designed to persuade people and whether or on it is aimed at especially susceptible targets. Preaching violence to a bunch of gun fetishists, religious fanatics and bigots - in other words, to the Republican base - isn’t going to have the same effect as a game not aimed at anyone in particular that isn’t telling them to do anything in particular.

I don’t think I deserved the rolleyes just then. You whip that out too fast I think.

So the recent successes in the video game industry involved games that were aimed at no particular demographic, had absolutely no goals in the action, and these nonexistent goals were not directed at particular groups of people? I had no idea! So my understanding of the gameplay must be based entirely in my prejudices then because they are actually context free!?

It is? Can you quote the part of the OP that supports your assertion about what the debate is “really about”?

Maybe this will add another flavor to the debate:

It is suggested that you do something. Doesn’t matter what it is, only that it is something pertaining to an issue or topic that you hold dear to your heart. This person who makes this suggestion is:

A) A homeless person who also is rambling about needing sun screen for his invisible dog
B) John Stamos’ Left Ear, an anonymous online persona whom you know nothing about
C) The singer of your favorite band
D) A politico you respect employed by a news organization that you actively listen to
E) A politician whose views you mostly support
F) Your mom

Dare I say that if anyone suggests or tells you to take an action that you consider the fucking source?

That isn’t to say that the homeless guy cannot add some new view that you didn’t think about, and maybe your mom sucks. Regardless, some sources are held to higher standards than others and I don’t think it is unfair or hypocritical to hold elected officials or talking heads employed by the mainstream media to higher standards than we do musicians, a rambling bum on the street or your humble original poster. (Or your mom.)

Yes, I agree that politicians should be held a higher standard. That doesn’t mean that politicians have a more significant influence on any given individual or on most people.

Folks on this MB are not regular visitors to web sites like Ormfront-stay* or any number of hate sites out there that really can and do stoke the violent urges of people who are certain they’‘re being oppressed by the government and/or society as a whole. Most of us don’t live in our parents’ basements, listening to “edgy” music with violent lyrics.

I think a lot of people here are seeing this current tragedy thru the lenses of their own eyes and experience. Hell, I’m a new junkie for sure, and I never new about Sarah Palin’s targe list until it came in these recent threads.

*I don’t want to risk inviting even one person from that MB to post here

Well, I didn’t mean just the debate in this thread (it’s going on across the country in various forms), but to my reading it’s the crux of the OP here too. JSLE mentions various kinds of speakers (politicians, pundits, artists, etc.) expressing, or appearing to express, ideas that many might find reprehensible if they took them seriously. So the basic question seemed to be the issue of how seriously these various kinds of speakers should be taken, and how much responsibility then attaches to them for the actions of people who do take them seriously.

In particular, he mentioned,

That’s why I quoted Palin aide Rebecca Mansour’s recent disavowal of a serious interpretation of their own material, the gunsight “hit list,” which was criticized as such upon its issue last March–by Rep. Giffords among others–but only withdrawn and explained away when it became linked in the public mind to actual killings last weekend.

Sure. (Though ideas can be evaluated independently of their origins, too.)

But different people will judge the value of any given source–any given speaker’s apparent advocacy–differently, relative to their potential action.

So the moral standard for whether speech of given content is responsible can’t be tied to any one audience’s estimation of the speaker’s value. If I, or you, don’t assign any credence or value to what Speaker Z has to say on a subject, that obviously can’t mean that it doesn’t matter what he says.

I’m really not seeing how we can fairly draw bright lines between certain speakers, saying these must be very careful, because people take them seriously, but those can do whatever they like, because people don’t. There are always going to be some people who take any message seriously, and differences in the “serious audience” pool are quantitative not qualitative, especially given the category-blurring mentioned earlier. And sometimes it only takes one.

What if the singer for my favorite band was John Stamos?

In the 2nd amendment solutions thread I brought up eliminationist politics, and how I believe it’s different from mere violently tinged rhetoric or hate speech. It seems appropriate to pursue that thought in this thread, because it goes to the distinction between what some pundits have been doing and other types of speech or entertainment that contain violent imagery.

The idea of eliminationism is to clearly identify for your audience the objects deserving their fear and loathing, define them as enemies of a distinct, different and separate class and agitate for their removal or neutralization. Commentators of all political stripes engage in this, but to be effective it must be done consistently and over a long period of time by popular figures. It must have some basis of popular belief within the intended audience to build on -racial, ethnic or political stereotypes or historical grievances.

The ultimate goal of eliminationism seems as if it would be elimination of the scapegoated group, but it’s really the ascension to power of the eliminationists’ group. That doesn’t mean the scapegoating is done as a cynical device. Any individual eliminationist can be (and probably is) a believer in what they’re saying. But because the primary goal is the acquisition of power, all points of doctrine among the eliminationists must be graven principles or else their overall position becomes weakened, and this includes the propaganda regarding the scapegoats. This tends to immunize such propaganda against evidence based reasoning.

Now, Palin and her fellows have no hope in hell of ever snowballing their message into a major populist movement within the US. They’re dealing with too tiny a minority of people, in a country too large, centrist and disparately ethnic to ever achieve the type of fundamental societal shift they’re looking for. But though it’s small, their minority of followers is a considerable pool of individuals that have very strong conceptual frameworks regarding liberals, socialism in America, unions, all the boogeymen so clearly outlined by Fox News et al and assigned to the umbrella term “Democrat.”

That fearful audience not only has decades of cartoonish portrayals of liberalism that it truly believes, it’s being reminded daily that Democrats don’t love their country, want to establish a socialist government with control over grandma’s life or death, and must be removed before you lose your country to them. And oh by the way don’t forget your 2nd amendment rights and keep your guns in good repair.

On another thread, someone posted a link to a guy from the left who was moved to threaten a Republican congressperson over her anti HCR vote. I have no reason to doubt that dumbasses from any political stripe can be inspired by dark rhetoric, and I hope all parties become vigilant regarding it and self-police to discourage its use. They need to start that right now, and they need to call out their members publicly when they use such rhetoric, whether its use is disproportionate between parties or not.

This really isn’t complicated stuff. There’s a large ocean of possibilities between blithe acceptance of rabble rousing speech designed to separate Americans along ideological lines, and the criminalization of passionate forms of expression. Is it really so hard to stop being defensive on a partisan level long enough to cut some of the bullshit out of politics?

Yes, we should. Should it be seriously expected that a schizophrenic/bipolar disordered individual be able to come up with the same rational distinctions that you or I would? Should our communication, our politics, our national endeavors be limited to what only the crazy among us can successfully parse?

Elected officials are held to a higher standard. At Palin’s current rate she stands no chance of further holding office. She will, at best, Insha’Allah, screw up the Republicans in 2012 by running as a 3rd party with political pull among nutty right-wing voters. She is being raked over the coals for using rhetoric that is not fundamentally different from rhetoric used in past campaigning. Her private life is exposed for all to see.

On the other hand, her rhetoric has helped shape our politics and apparently propelled many people to power. This might have never happened if she was forced or compelled to use phrasing that was less combative. She is probably too stupid or too uneducated or just too much of a n00b to make a point without sounding like a drunk cowboy.

Stick to the principle you espoused in your OP, apply it to everyone, even people you do not like.