Didn’t look remotely to me like he was. Or like I was either.
I think the problem is that some very well meaning people are getting a hair trigger on the scolding feels.
Or like scientific ‘proof’.
More annoyed with scolds who have knee jerk responses to any expression of someone having any social contacts to preserve some quality of life as putting others at risk, with their complete ignorance of any specific information about those choices giving no pause before they offensively scold away. When directed at me it merely makes me laugh, as hypotheticals I will discuss, but ignorant jibes at my family, yeah I react. So Junior mods can cringe away.
Which brings us back to the subject of this OP and the point I have made before: The behavior of these scolds and their position that any social contact is irresponsibly putting others at risk (with no end in sight to the isolation they propose) is a large part of why so many push back. They eliminate the space for reasoned discussion on levels of risk reduction behaviors and their relative likely risk/benefit payoffs; they offer only something that is unsustainable and fail to appreciate how social isolation itself not only takes away quality of life but itself kills.
I get that they are very very afraid. In general I cut slack for that. But that does not excuse it and it does not excuse @DMC’s throwing out numbers like visiting family for the holidays with a 1 in 50 chance of killing a family member …or even his still hysterical promotion of the completely wrong one in 4000 chance visiting your 70 year old mom will kill her. (Based on assumptions that someone would visit throughout any point of illness, exaggerated IFR numbers, and that the secondary attack rate in all cases and all visits is 100%.)
@MandaJo made the point that
Here the case is more that people are so bad at math that anything more than zero feels like a for sure gonna happen.
Her proposed “frank evaluation of risk/reward” is not well served by the actions of the scolds or by bad math exaggerations.
But this is an important aspect of this mess. Those who do all the right things are getting fed up . I watch NZ folks attend a sporting event, just like normal, because they all did the right thing-- led by government down to the individual – and I am angry that the US is worsening after all this time because of the anti-maskers/deniers. And I don’t think I’m unusual. Anger is a piece of mourning & 215,000 families are currently grieving a person lost to COVID. With many more to come. COVID is booming across the US, now even in areas previously untouched. I keep thinking that, at some point, the rage and resentment against the anti-maskers/deniers will boil over. And I keep trying to figure out the boiling point. I believe the election results will affect it – Biden will push it back &, depending on his actions, maybe stop it, while Trump will bring it on sooner. I don’t know just what form it will take, or how it will manifest, but it seems inevitable to me. Or maybe others are much more tolerant than I am.
My guess is that when the election is over things will indeed change, a lot. But I think you’ve hit on something really important here, even if it’s not what you might think. See, I disagree in two ways with what you have proposed here. The smaller of the two ways is that I don’t agree that outrage from 215,000 families is enough to swing public sentiment in the way you describe. That number may sound overwhelming to some (though it really shouldn’t), but in the context of all the families in the country and across the time span of the better part of a year, it’s just really not. Not that these numbers are necessarily accurate, but you can’t expect outrage from one percent of people to drown out the feelings of the other 99 percent.
The bigger disagreement, though, is that it seems more and more clear to me all the time that the majority of those deaths did not come as a great surprise to those 215,000 families. All deaths may look the same on paper, as it were, when they are data points in daily reports, but of course each one has its own circumstances. It struck me fairly early on that part of the narrative was absent, if the virus was truly the cold-blooded killer it is often made out to be, and now that we are eight or so months into it, the absence speaks volumes. I’m talking about things like the subjects of the ‘most famous person killed’ thread on this very forum. Or how many people you talk to who not only don’t know anyone healthy and not elderly who has died from the virus or even come close but also don’t know anyone else who does. Seems like when you hear about someone famous, or at least notorious, testing positive, the next thing you hear is that they’ve recovered. In this respect it’s very, very different from something like cancer or heart disease, and in many communities even something like drug overdose. Do you remember those graphics early on touting the disease as the leading cause of death for the year? Those have not aged well. And do you sometimes check on the excess deaths for the year? That panic seems gone.
What is certainly not gone, though, and was never overstated, is the extraordinary suffering – and yes, avoidable sickness and death – endured by countless people for reasons besides SARS-COV2. I imagine that is the source of resentment you should be far more concerned about boiling over.
That resentment boiled over about March, if you recall the protests and marches mounted by the anti-maskers/deniers. I know many of those people and it’s amazing how they’ve gone quiet as COVID gets closer to home & their arguments (1- there aren’t that many cases, followed soon by, 2- yeah, there are lots of cases, but not very many hospitalizations, followed a week later by, 3- yeah, there are a lot more hospitalizations, but you need to look at deaths, which are down, followed by… but the economy) lose steam. Yes, these folks are still angry – watch the reactions to their next outbursts and see if they get the same reaction or a much harsher response. Maybe their boiling over will trigger the other side.
I do not think 215,000 deaths will spur public outrage, my question is just how many it will take – 500,000? 1 million? I’m using the number of deaths as an indicator – people aren’t angry a few hundred thousand strangers died, it’s what that number says about their increased personal risk & personal impact, about how their government is not handling this pandemic, it’s what number will finally trigger medical personnel to quit making the big sacrifices they’ve been making (why should I work this hard when people won’t even try), it’s what number (and the circumstances brought about by that number) shuts down services and products they consider important. The majority of people have been making an effort, while watching those efforts get flushed by a small group & so far they’ve tolerated that with nothing but attempts to reason with the deniers – will that continue or is there a tipping point where a bat to the teeth (or maybe just imprisonment) starts to seem like the appropriate response to everyone.
I’m not sure what your point is in your reference to ‘leading cause of death’ and ‘excess deaths’, but a quick search looks like COVID is currently the third leading cause (and climbing), and several studies have found that COVID deaths are likely undercounted by 20,000-30,000. And no one has yet looked at how many ‘other’ deaths could have been prevented if hospitals weren’t so overwhelmed with COVID cases. The panic may be gone, but the awareness is very much alive. And contributing to the rising anger of the majority.
Moderating
DSeid, let’s keep it civil in this forum. No warning issued, but dial it back.
And if you think someone is junior modding, report it, don’t junior mod yourself (this post obviously being sarcastic).
Colibri
Quarantine Zone Moderator
Moderator Note
This said, this is in fact junior modding. If you have a problem with a post, report it rather than addressing it yourself.
Colibri
General Questions Moderator
Noted. Thank you for the feedback.
I did report it when it first occurred. It continued.
Again, thank you for the feedback. I hope to get the hang of this soon. Your patience and guidance is appreciated.
Your anger is displaced. The death count has continued to go down since the beginning of August.
While this is true, it is by no means uniformly true across the U.S.
Here’s a CDC graph, which shows that, yes, in fact, the 7-day trend on deaths, across the U.S., is slowly declining:
However, data from the Washington Post shows that, in 21 states, the 7-day average death rate is increasing; in nine of those states, it’s increased by at least 50%. (Scroll down to the “Case and death counts by place” table, and select “Deaths”, then “Adjusted for population”)
Respectfully, this sounds a lot less like science than it does religion. I take it you are talking about mask wearing and social distancing, correct? What, like 80% are doing it and 20% aren’t, and the latter are ruining everything for the former? I don’t think that’s really how it works. By what mechanism would you propose it would?
Well, ya don’t say!
Does your mother-in-law only visit with people outside and over six feet apart? If not, is she wearing a mask at all times? Are the other people wearing masks at all times? Is her house well ventilated and/or have an air purifier? If this is the case, then the risk is substantially lessened.
If she and her friends are not taking these precautions, I believe the point @Czarcasm was trying to make is that if she visits with other people, she is risking spreading the disease. That means the risk is not just to her.
A problem you could have relieved many times, but so far have refused to do so.
Your implication here is that every person deserves full knowledge of every other person’s business. That is the problem.
To reorient the conversation back to the OP, Dallas County has posted 500+ cases a day for the last few days. This while our seven day average is around 350. It feels like an extraordinary jump. But everyone has gone numb and life appears to be going on as usual.
The “problem” is that he gave us information to respond to, then got upset when it was responded to. If there is clarifying information that says that my response is mistaken, the fact that he would rather be upset with me than simply impart the clarifying information is telling.
Ah, someone who is actually interested in the specific facts before they pass scolding judgement!
My mother-in-law lives alone in a house on the beach front. She goes out masked, to shop for groceries, for medical appointments, and that is pretty much it. She had romantically partnered with a long time friend a bit after my father-law died (his wife, who had been her close friend had died years before) and after some years together he died almost two years ago. She had become the default matriarch of his family and continues to be. They are local to her. My wife and I, and our kids, are not. My brother-in-law lives closer to her and has had covid with positive antibodies as well (also has some “long covid” issues), visits sometimes, socially distances from her when he does, but has a very full work schedule and can’t get there much. His partner sometimes comes along and is very rigid with his social distancing.
That family is out and about in the world, in retail and other public facing jobs. They may not all always be rigid about their social distancing, I don’t know. She has made the decision to invite them to visit her and they do. Mostly they have been outside when they do, or so I am told, but I would be surprised if that is always done. There is zero question in my mind that her risk of catching covid is raised by some non-zero margin by these visits … and that her quality of live is raised as well. The latter much more significantly than the former, still clearly she marginally increases her risk of catching covid and perhaps even dying of it … but living longer appeals to her less than living better (or less poorly). She has not lived alone for any significant length of time since she was 18. Even with these visits she is usually sad if not clinically depressed and commonly speaks of how she’s had a good life and the current world gives her nothing to look forward to. I do not begrudge her that choice and I am grateful to them that she has them there and that they care enough about her emotional health to take the time to visit her regularly. My wife is miserable that circumstances prevent her from visiting with her mother while she is so sad. I fear that the human connection that this family offers is insufficient and that she is increasingly losing her will to live after the loss of her second and possibly greater love followed by such isolation. We call and she does but calls are not enough. Just over the phone it is clear that she is aging more in the last several months than in the last decade. The relative isolation she is enduring is IMHO much more of an imminent threat to her longevity than the marginal increase in her covid risk form those visits. I don’t begrudge her decision.
I do resent and object to others feeling they have the right to judge it. Those who do that, especially with no knowledge of the specifics, are to me … doing something very bad.
Scolds don’t seem to need to know before they scold. They know all they need to know without asking. And they don’t bother to ask.
What level are you at, alert wise?