Am I missing something? (re: supposedly racist comment on Reddit)

Great Debates
41

Do you have an argument to make or are you just pointing out “funny” things?

Norway has a different history with capitalism than we do. Their culture of capitalism is different, and so is their ethos towards labor. Americans follow a model of allowing businesses to maximize productivity, even if that comes at social expense. They don’t have that mindset in Norway, which is why they have labor lawsthat prevent employers from assigning the kind of long work hours that are commonplace in the U.S. They enjoy generous vacation days too.

Yes, in the U.S. people have been brainwashed to fear anything that shifts power away from corporations and gives it to workers. If you think this fear is a modern day invention, I have a history book to chuck at you.

42

Good post. I was asking what YOUR thoughts were on the divides you saw after all, not what I thought their ‘core beliefs’ are. Ok, so they have some political dissention between the current coalition government and the opposition. That’s fairly standard. What I’m really asking is there a large group that dissents (to demonstrate these ‘divides’ you mentioned). Seem there are some divisions, but they are more of where the bar should be kind of arguments, with perhaps a bit of left/right (by Norway’s standards) tossed in. It IS interesting that the younger Norwegians have been woo’ed to the dark side by the US and away from the true faith of the past…if that is indeed a real thing. Especially if this has to do with immigration and at least the perception that the homogeneous solidarity of the past is breaking down (even if it doesn’t look that way to an outsider…I hardly think a few hundred thousand Finn’s and others are going to shift that).

Anyway, I appreciate the answer, especially from your perspective as a citizen of the EU but from a different country…one that is, if I might say, less homogeneous than Norway. And seems, at least to an outsider who has only visited, much more fractious and contentious in your politics than what you listed here as Norway’s great ‘divides’. :stuck_out_tongue:

43

The implication, when these arguments are made usually, is that our problem is with these pesky minorities and their pesky minority culture. It’s generally brought up as a white-supremacist argument: if only we were all white, like in Norway (hint: not all white in Norway), we could have their utopia too (hint, not a utopia).

But when you’re looking at major social problems in the US, as often as not they ARE race-based: specifically, they’re tied, very often, to our history of white supremacy. The problem isn’t pesky minorities: the problem is that the folks in power tend to be white folks who are super racist, or at best they tend to be white folks who are comfortable maintaining institutional racism.

44

A thousand times YES.

45

No, Sweden has more Swedes in it than the US has of any ethnic group, including native Americans, as a percentage of it’s population. I’m unsure why you think being born here makes a difference. You live here, presumably. Do you have a great connection to folks on the other side of the country (or the next state over) simply because they were born here?? Do you feel that you share similar values, mores and the like because of that birth?? If I live in New York, does the fact that someone was born in Texas, and their family have been there for a few generations make that connection? I’d say no to all of these rhetorical questions.

Race IS a problem in the US. It always has been. While in Europe, class was a bigger issue, in the US our focus has always been on the myth that is ‘race’. That and the fact that the US is just so vast. People in California don’t really have that great a connection to people born in New England, or Appalachia, or even the North West…and vice versa. Those regions were generally colonized by distinct ethnic groups that didn’t have connections to the other ethnic groups that colonized other parts of the country. This isn’t the case in Norway, or Sweden, or Germany, or Japan, or Korea, or China or…or…or. It IS a think in Canada, which I’m surprised no one has latched onto. Canada is very much similar to the US on this, though they never had our fixation with race.

46

Not really - or rather, on the contrary. It’s about ethnic Norwegians losing their cultural Norwegian-ness, or steering too much towards individualism over community-spirit if you follow my meaning.

Yeah, but then we didn’t exactly wait until the big uptick in non-white population after WW2 to be at each others’ throats ;). Hell, a majority of us didn’t even speak French as late as the 1900s.

But, to turn the question around, what issues do you think the US has that are non-standard (since you described all those tensions I listed as “fairly standard”) ? Like, yes, race issues are a Thing obviously for instance, but Norway has them too with its non-white and some of its white population, just as France & the UK struggle with their colonial pasts (and don’t get me started on France’s overseas territories), just as Turks don’t have it all the greatest in Germany or Austria, just as Chinese & Koreans (or white boys) don’t fare too well in Japan, just as indigenous groups struggle all over the Americas and in 'Straya & New Zealand… The US doesn’t exactly have a monopoly on race issues.
And I can vouch that we French didn’t need a history of slavery to redline and ghettoise our communities of North African and Sub-Saharan African descent. Same issues of disproportionate, routinely racist police violence ; same systemic racism in the penal system ; same systemic discrimination in employment ; same endemic poverty & crime ; same “welfare queens !” bullshit etc…

47

You understand that none of this has anything to do with capitalism…or socialism either. Right? Norway giving more vacation days or having different labor laws doesn’t make them less capitalist or more socialist.

Sure, feel free to chuck away. Show me how the US has ‘had pro-capitalism, anti-socialism rhetoric beaten into its collective ass since 1776’. As far as I know wrt history, the real ramp up to anti-socialism was, as I said, in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, with it becoming almost indoctrination during the cold war period. As for pro-capitalism, again, I’d like to see how this was some sort of rhetorical beating the population was hit over the head with going back to 1776. But my US history isn’t that great, to be honest, so lay it on me…always willing to learn something new.

48

Those jerks… they deserved to die of dysentery.

49

You said that people living in the same country for generations had an advantage. Americans have been living together for generations, more so than in Sweden. It’s the foreign born that have not.

The only reason why what you wrote makes any sense is if non-white Americans living in this country for generations don’t actually count as full Americans.

50

…are Black Americans not just Americans in the context of this discussion?

51

It’s a good question. I think our issues are that where to set the bar (and for whom) are much more widely varied. So, we are still trying to figure out if we should, for instance, have a national health care system. IF we should. At that point, assuming we could agree on that, then there is…what should it look like? We are that fractured. And this isn’t just a Democrats verse Republicans or even a right verse left, there are fundamental disagreements even in those groups over this sort of thing. And that’s just one issue. There is a huge gamut of similar issues.

I think that our lack of homogeneity (and this isn’t just race…it’s ethnicity, religion, culture and a whole lot more) makes it particularly difficult for us to work these sorts of things out at a national level. More difficult than more homogeneous countries do. Though really, it’s kind of a cop out in a way, as Canada is ever bit as diverse as the US and THEY certainly have managed to work shit out we still haven’t.

Of course, the flip side is, as I said in an earlier post, it’s also our great strength, as we are, IMHO, more flexible in some respects than other countries, and we’ve managed to adopt a lot from the various groups that make up our nation. I think France, having had a world wide empire AND your countries ability to and history of adopting anyone into it, regardless of ethnicity (as long as they became French to the core, of course ;)) is part of your strength…and contentious past you mentioned as well. But the thing is, your national identity is in the bones of your nation, and has been for hundreds, even thousands of years. That’s something the US doesn’t have…yet. And it makes for a lot of the contention here. Which, getting back to the OP, makes us very different from countries like Norway when comparing and contrasting us.

52

What?

53

Are ‘white’ Americans not ‘just Americans in the context of this discussion’? What ARE ‘black Americans’? What are ‘white Americans’?

Certainly, all Americans are American. Not sure why that even needs to be said. Whatever their race, it’s what they are, and they are equally American (even if they aren’t always treated equally as they should be). But what IS an ‘American’ in the context of, say, Norway? What is our shared culture, history and heritage? We have one, to be sure…but not like Norway or other nations who have been around for a long time.

Your location says New Zealand, so you should get this to some extent. Your nation hasn’t been around that long, not nearly as long as Norway. You are fairly homogeneous, IIRC, having had immigrants initially from the same country, but you also had a native population and plenty of immigration from other countries in your region. What does it mean to be a New Zealander? Do you feel you have a shared ethnicity with your fellow New Zealanders?

54

It makes sense to me in a context that isnt’ about white or non-white (hell, what the fuck IS ‘white’ in this context for that matter???) being full Americans…whatever that is. Seriously, wtf? Sweden, the cultural identity and shared heritage goes back thousands of years (hell, before it WAS ‘Sweden’). Some folks immigrating in, especially from other Scandinavian countries isn’t going to shift that in a few generations.

Living in the same country isn’t the same as a shared cultural and ethnic heritage. It has nothing to do with generations, unless those generations are literally living together closely and becoming all those things. Sure, the US is the great melting pot, but we haven’t melted anything like into the homogeneity that Norway is and has been for thousands of years. This, again (for what, the hundredth time at least?) about white verse non-white, as ‘white’ is a meaningless grouping that is only meaningful to Americans who don’t actually think about it to closely or understand what comprises ‘white’ in America. Hell, even our ‘white’ category hasn’t melded to anything like the extent that a country like Norway is and has been for thousands of years. Think about how different your outlook and world view are to some ‘white’ person in Appalachia for instance…or in New England. Or in Texas. Forget about white verse non-white for a second and think about white verse white and how different this one hodge podge group is in the US.

55

Anyone besides me notice that the most diverse places in the US tend to be the most populated places? They tend to be the places with the best jobs, most cultural centers and attractions, and most wealth?

And the least diverse places tend to be the places that few are eager to visit. Indeed, many of those places are in various stages of decay due to lack of opportunity.

Having said all that, I have stumbled across this interesting article:

Oregon’s strong safety net might be due to the overwhelming whiteness of its population

The supposition of that piece is that Oregonians are less likely to vote against expanded welfare programs because the face of poverty in Oregon is overwhelmingly white. The idea of white people in need tugs at the heart strings of the average tax-paying Oregonian. But perhaps if there were more brown and black faces standing in lines for food stamps, there would be more stinginess among the populace.

It’s an interesting idea, to be fair. But if ethnic homogeneity promotes a “let’s take care of everybody cuz we’re all in this together!” mentality, wouldn’t you expect super white West Virginia to not be so poor and full of despair? I know I would.

56

…that’s the question that you need to answer, not us. You’ve made the distinction. You need to make the clarification.

I **am **the native population. I’m Tangata Whenua. Nga Puhi. We are officially a bi-cultural nation but we think of ourselves as a multi-cultural society. We don’t have a shared ethnicity but we rejoice and we celebrate our differences. We aren’t homogeneous at all.

But that’s entirely beside the point. Because despite our multi-cultural society (which is the complete opposite of how you portray the cultural identity and shared heritage of the Swedish) we have much more in common with the Swedish socio-economic ethos than we ever will with the United States of America. We have universal healthcare. Accident Compensation. A strong, universal safety-net. Our lack of a common cultural identity and shared heritage should be an obstacle to this according to your theories, but it isn’t.

57

No, I specifically said there is no such thing as ‘white’ Americans…or ‘black’ Americans, for that matter. Those are groupings that are meaningless except to Americans who don’t really think about it very closely.

Cool. While I’m a mixed bag of ethnicities, the majority of my genetic makeup is native (to Mexico anyway). I’m what’s called a mestizo. We are also multi-cultural, but we don’t exactly celebrate our differences the way you seem to. I’m glad for you and wish it could be like that here (well, in Mexico…or the US for that matter).

That’s good. I didn’t say that you could only have those things if you are homogeneous, just that it’s easier if you have a shared identity and culture. Canada also has those things while being multi-cultural, so it’s not impossible. And many countries that are homogeneous ethnically are a mess, so it’s not guarantee that having ethnic and cultural homogeneity means everything is sunshine and happiness. Like I said, diversity is both a strength and weakness. In the US it certainly is both.

58

Which ‘white’ ethnic groups colonized West Virginia? IIRC, it’s a mix of Irish, Scots, English, Scandinavians and Germans, but this is based mostly on fictional books. In the ethnic makeup on Google, it merely says ‘white’…which, as I’ve noted, is pretty freaking meaningless since that comprises a bunch of different European groups who didn’t and don’t always get along or integrate very well. Also, West Virginia is really mountainous, so you had a lot of pocket groups that were on their own (clans and tribes and the like) and associated more with themselves and thought of themselves in that context than as Americans…or even West Virginians (which wasn’t a thing in any case until after the Civil War).

Like I said in my last post, homogeneity or even shared ethnic heritage isn’t some sort of golden guarantee of all things good. There are places that have ethnic and cultural homogeneity and still have a ton of strife. But it does help. It also helps if you are a small, concentrated population, instead of a large, spread out one (or an isolated one such as your West Virginia example).

59

Your idea of the significance of whiteness is backwards.

“White” is the ruling class. The history of ethnicity on the United States is the history of which immigrant groups have been admitted to whiteness and which haven’t.

In turn, Irish, Italians, Poles, etc., have spent some time being denied whiteness before they were accepted. Jews are on the edge of being admitted to whiteness. East Asians are white-adjacent.

What’s significant is the one group that has never been allowed to come near to admission to whiteness and that is black people. Indeed, the very concept of whiteness might not be viable without the permanent ineligibility of blacks.

The original sin of racism is the invention of the concept of whiteness. Racism will never be completely eradicated until the concept of whiteness is eradicated. Once white people stop thinking of themselves as members of the white race, the whole racist infrastructure will fall apart.

60

…you’ve specifically said lots of very different things. It doesn’t surprise me that you’ve lost exactly what your point happens to be. You stated:

" Sweden has more Swedes in it than the US has of any ethnic group, including native Americans, as a percentage of it’s population."

How are you defining “a Swede”, and how are you defining “an American?” It seems apparent from the cites you are arguing against that the US actually has a greater percentage of USAIN’s in it than Sweden has Swedes. But you seem to think differently. If you agree that Black Americans are just Americans, and that Native Americans are just Americans in the context of this discussion, then you have no argument here.

Well, yeah, the so-called “melting pot”, which some would describe as “assimilation”.

Easier is a relative term. Easier than what?

So what does this say about the arguments put forward by the OP?

I don’t think diversity is a weakness at all. And if it is or it isn’t really doesn’t have much bearing on this discussion. It certainly wasn’t a barrier to the sort of society we’ve developed here.