America don't you think you are exagerating?

[Duck_Duck_Goose]

Research, because I’m curious.

Here is an English translation of the LeMonde article on Abbas Kiarostami, from an Iranian news site. It says at the end, “This front-page article, translated by Dorna Khazeni, appeared in the September 20, 2002, issue of Le Monde in Paris.” Here’s the original LeMonde article.

http://www.iranian.com/Arts/2002/September/Kia/index.html

No entry for Kiarostami
New visa regulations for Iranians prevent filmmaker from getting a U.S. visa

By Jacques Mandelbaum
September 21, 2002
The Iranian
Source: Le Monde

The film was released in France on September 18. Abbas Kiarostami is in Paris for the film’s release. At the U.S. consulate, he hurtled into the new security measures undertaken by the American State Department for protection against terrorism. These considerably lengthen the process required for obtaining a U.S. visa for those originating from specific countries.

Jack Lang, alerted to the situation by the film’s producer, Marin Karmitz, attempted to mediate vis a vis the American authorities by writing to Howard Leach, the U.S. ambassador, on September 11. This proved to be fruitless. On September 16 he received a response from the consulate arguing that “the rules in place require an obligatory interview with the person seeking a visa followed by a six to eight-week delay while administrative formalities are followed and the file is examined.”

< snip >

At least Kiarostami will have escaped the terrible fate that befell his compatriot Jafar Panahi, the recipient of the Venice Golden Lion in 2000 for his film The Circle. Having arrived in New York in May 2001 to receive the Award for Freedom of Expression, he was immediately thrown in prison and then summarily expelled from the country without any legal due process.

Details on Jafir Panahi. Notice that the Panahi incident took place in April 2001, which was before 9/11, and that the visa restrictions that just went into effect in May 2002 were already being talked about in June 2000 (see end of post).

http://www.iranian.com/Opinion/2001/April/Panahi/index.html

What would Terry say?
Profiling Iranian passengers in the U.S.
By Goudarz Eghtedari
April 27, 2001
The Iranian

The following was submitted to The Oregonian newspaper for publication but it was declined.

The Los Angeles Times reported that renowned Iranian director Jafar Panahi, best known for his Oscar-nominated film “The White Balloon,” was detained last weekend for 12 hours by immigration officials at JFK Airport in New York, where he was changing planes en route from Hong Kong to Buenos Aires to attend a film festival.

Despite the United Airline assurances of his clearance while in transit in the U.S. before boarding for Buenos Aires, the INS personnel, nonetheless, demanded that he must go through their “routine” security process, which entails fingerprinting, excessive search, interview, and photographing…He was then held four more hours before being put on a plane back to Hong Kong and from there on to Tehran, where he makes his home.

Panahi had been scheduled to travel from Buenos Aires to San Francisco and later to Los Angeles for the opening of his acclaimed new film “The Circle”, but angered by his treatment, he canceled the trip.

In Panahi’s own words (edited by me slightly)

Iranian director protests harassment by US immigration officials

On April 15, I left the Hong Kong Film Festival for the Montevideo and Buenos Aires Festivals on United Airlines’ flight 820. This 30-hour trip was via New York’s JFK airport, where I was to stay for two hours and board my flight to Montevideo. Further to my requests, the staff of all the said Festivals had previously checked if a transit visa is required, and they assured me there is no need for such visa. Moreover, the airline issued me the ticket via NY. Nevertheless, I too asked the United Airlines staff in the Hong Kong Airport about the need for a transit visa, and I received the same response. But as soon as I arrived at JFK airport, the American immigration police took me to an office and asked that I be fingerprinted and photographed because of my nationality. I refused to do it, and I showed them my invitations from the Festivals. They threatened to put me in jail if I would not be fingerprinted. I asked for an interpreter and to make a phone call. They refused. Then, they chained me like the medieval prisoners [I’m assuming this means “They put him in handcuffs”] and put me in a police patrol and took me to another part of the airport. There were many people, women and men from different countries. They handed me off to new policemen. They chained my feet and locked my chain to the others, all locked to a very dirty bench. For 10 hours, no questions and answers, I was forced to sit on that bench, pressed to the others.

At last, I saw the next morning. Another policeman came to me and said that they have to take my photograph. I said, “never”. I offered to give them a picture of myself that I had with me. They said no, they have to take my photo (in the way criminals’ photos are taken) and do the fingerprinting. I refused. An hour later, two other guys came to me and threatened to do the fingerprinting and photography by computer, and again I refused and asked for a phone. At last, they accepted and I could call Dr. Jamsheed Akrami, Iranian film professor at Columbia University and I told him the whole story. I asked him to convince them, since he knows me well, that I am not a guy to do what they were looking for. Two hours later, a policeman came and took one of my own photos of myself. They chained me again and took me to a plane, a plane that was going back to Hong Kong…

These are the new visa restrictions, that went into effect May 14, 2002.

http://www.stanford.edu/group/peace/visas.html

H.R.3525, “The Enhanced Border Security and Visa Entry Reform Act”, includes a provision which would prevent anyone from a county labeled a “state sponsor of terrorism” from obtaining a nonimmigrant visa – such as a student visa, a visa to visit family, or an H1-B visa – unless approved by the US Secretary of State, using standards yet to be determined.

The U.S. list of “state sponsors of terrorism” includes seven countires: Iran, Sudan, Cuba, North Korean, Libya, Iraq, and Syria.

Text of new law.

The State Department very kindly summarizes the new law for us. Sort of.

http://www.nafsa.org/content/ProfessionalandEducationalResources/ImmigrationAdvisingResources/doscable093239.htm

SUBJECT: Enhanced Border Security and Visa Entry Reform Act of 2002 - ALDAC No. 1

1. Summary. On May 14, 2002, the President signed into law H.R. 3525, the “Enhanced Border Security and Visa Entry Reform Act of 2002.” This telegram provides a summary of the provisions of the new law pertinent to visa operations. Procedures for implementing these provisions are being discussed and will be provided to posts at a later date.

<< blah blah blah, humongous big snip, blah blah blah >>

12. Sec. 306 Restriction of NIV issuance to aliens from countries of state-sponsored terrorism

Section 306 restricts the issuance of nonimmigrant visas to aliens who are nationals of countries that are state sponsors of international terrorism unless it has been determined by the Secretary that the alien does not pose a safety or security threat. (Discussion of enhanced screening requirements for these aliens is under way. Consuls should follow current procedures pending receipt of further instructions. The Department has currently determined that Cuba, Iran, Iraq, Libya, North Korea, Sudan, and Syria are countries that are state sponsors of international terrorism.)

<< more blah blah blah, another humongous big snip, blah blah blah >>

POWELL

I kinda like that–“POWELL”. Like “CHER”. Or “EMINEM”.

Er…Anybody wanna comment? On the law, I mean…Eva?

And along the way I found a superbly ironic quote from 2000.
http://www.cnn.com/2000/US/06/05/curbing.terrorism.02/index.html

U.S. panel: Civil liberties not jeopardized by anti-terrorism recommendations
Commission urges more aggressive action to combat terrorism threat

June 5, 2000
Web posted at: 9:46 p.m. EDT (0146 GMT)

WASHINGTON (CNN) – The United States should be more aggressive against terrorism, according to a report released Monday that calls for keeping closer tabs on international students in the U.S. and loosening information-gathering restrictions on the FBI and CIA.

“We believe that if (our recommendations) are followed, Americans will be safer from terrorist attacks here and abroad, without any loss of their civil liberties and constitutional rights,” said L. Paul Bremer, chairman of the National Commission on Terrorism.

The findings and recommendations were submitted to Congress by the commission, a panel of private experts and former federal officials created by Congress two years ago after bombings of U.S. embassies in Africa.

“We think there’s a chance terrorists will try to stage a catastrophic event in the United States in the future,” said Bremer, a former State Department ambassador-at-large for counterterrorism.

“We’re talking something which will have tens of thousands of casualties,” he told CNN.

Geez.

[Eva_Luna]

Well, well. So many potential comments, so little time. In no particular order:

1. Anyone who has read my other postings on the subject of U.S. immigration, and certainly anyone who has known me professionally, knows that I am certainly no huge fan of INS policies, and their insanely inconsistent enforcement practices.

2. I agree that there is very little risk in letting Mr. Panahi transit the U.S. without a visa, as he is AFAIK not a terrorist.

3. It is extremely unfortunate that Mr. Panahi was apparently misinformed by United Airlines about the need for a transit visa. However, airline personnel are NOT the best source of information regarding U.S. visa requirements. If it makes Mr. Panahi feel any better about the whole thing, the airline probably had to eat the cost of his unexpected return ticket. In the future, Mr. Panahi would be much better served by checking with those responsible for enforcing U.S. immigration policy, i.e. INS and/or the State Department, regarding things like the necessity for a transit visa.

4. I also feel it is extremely unfortunate that U.S.-Iranian relations have deteriorated to the point where the U.S. feels the need to pass a law requiring fingerprinting and photographing of all Iranian arrivals. I think that if we categorize people based purely on the country where they happen to have been born, we are guilty of the same sin as Osama bin-Laden (albeit to a rather lesser degree). U.S. national security would be much better served IMHO by finding more intelligent criteria for screening out potential terrorists than the passport they happen to be carrying. What we are doing now simply amounts to punishing individuals based on the actions of the governments of their countries. It’s stupid, it’s counterproductive to the cause of international diplomacy, and it’s wrong.

5. I agree that it takes far too long for people who are natives of countries that require clearances to get U.S. visas. It’s the nature of the bureaucratic beast at the moment, though, unfortunately; we passed a law, and don’t yet have the personnel or systems in place to enforce it efficiently. But heck, there are a lot of security-related things we don’t do efficiently. When I applied for my security clearance to work for the Justice Department, it took the better part of a year, and I was born and spent most of my life in the U.S.

6. I also agree that the U.S. should treat detained people much more humanely, especially those who have probably done nothing wrong except make a bureaucratic error or trust the judgement of someone who they shouldn’t have. Why is it so difficult to mop the floor? What harm could it do to let the guy make a phone call? Is it so difficult to give the detainees a sandwich?

7. However, Mr. Panahi was certainly not singled out for abusive treatment. I’ve had plenty of clients, and friends for that matter, treated the same way when they came in and some INS inspector decided they had the wrong paperwork or were lying about the purpose of their entry to the U.S. (Small hijack: sounds like Mr. Panahi was detained for a few hours, not put “in prison.” Prison is where you go after you are convicted of a crime. He was in an immigration holding facility at the airport.)

8. That said, it sounds like Mr. Panahi made a colossal pain in the ass of himself, and for no good reason. What possible harm can there be in being photographed and fingerprinted? He would have already had to submit a photograph to get a visa, ANY kind of visa, to the U.S. Hell, I once got a Soviet visa, for which I had to list all relatives in the former USSR, all languages I speak, and provide a negative AIDS test. Compared to that, how big a deal is it to provide fingerprints? I’ve had to do it myself as part of a government job application. Entry to the U.S. is a privilege, not a right, for foreigners.

9. Quite frankly, even the Chief of INS Inspections at the airport doesn’t have the legal authority to just let the guy in, assuming he even knows who Mr. Panahi is. And the fact that United Airlines, or a film professor, is willing to vouch for him is completely useless. Why is Mr. Panahi not pissed off at United, or at the festival staff, for that matter, for misinforming him about the need for a visa, instead of being pissed off at the U.S. Government for enforcing rules that have been on the books for years?

10. And for the record, does anyone know what’s required to get an Iranian visa, assuming I were even able to travel there on a U.S. passport? I don’t imagine the Iranian government would be happy to see me, either, as an American Jewish feminist with a big mouth.

Any other questions? I will address all inquiries to the best of my ability…you asked for it, you got it!

[Eva_Luna]

P.S. Estilicon, Iranians are not Arabs.

[Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor]

Point Of Order, Please!

I want to see the statistical data on the number of artistically, socially or politically important Iranians who have entered the US with no problem whatsoever.

Don’t you understand that 2 isolated instances are that and only that? Isolated instances! :smack:

Show me some more instances of refusal. Establish a pattern!

If you cannot establish a valid pattern, you are prattling uselessly.

No valid conclusion can be achieved by this namecalling.

[Satyagrahi]

[hijack]

Eva Luna, you have the sincerest commiserations of my wife and myself.

I am a U.S. native-born citizen, my wife is Greek, and we’ve been married for 13 months. Based on our experience, the INS as an organization and 97% of its employees are totally insane.

Considering that we’ve done it entirely on our own, downloading forms, reading instructions 37 times, and very occasionally telephoning questions to a pro bono service (we’re not rich), we’ve done pretty well. Her Application for Adjustment of Status is in process, waiting for the final interview, she has her Employment Authorization Document, and a multiple-entry Advance Parole. We just sent off the forms for extension/renewal/replacement of the last two.

The process, however, has been a severe strain on our marriage. There were moments when we each thought–and once said–that it would be vastly better for her to get on a plane back to Athens and continue our long-distance romance indefinitely. The fact that we are still together indicates to me that our marriage will be rock-solid–once we’re past the <extensive rant omitted> INS. Perhaps that’s what they have in mind??

The thought of dealing with those <vulgar expressions snipped> every day, day in and day out, boggles my mind. You have our sympathy and respect.

BTW, my wife didn’t particularly want to immigrate and tried to persuade me to move to Greece. I was more stubborn but I wonder sometimes if I made the right choice. IMO, Kiorastami and Panahi were lucky.

[/hijack]

[Neurotik]

To defend the INS a little bit, they are a bit overworked. When I used to work with them, I noticed that they tended to have about three times more cases than was considered possible for a normal person to have to do.

I can’t wait to start dealing with this crap when I begin in the Foreign Service soon.

[Una_Persson]

*Originally posted by Estilicon *
**I am not sure this is a great debate. But my opinion is that things have gone to far. **

Gee, Estilicon, haven’t you griped before about how evil Amerika and Amerikans are?

Are you going to comment on the Finnish rejection of Abbas Kiarostami’s visa? I would love to see you say the same sorts of things about the Finns that you have about America.

Jack Lang, from Le Monde, siad “A sad story that shows intelectual isolation and ignorance that border lack of respect for other cultures”.

Oh yeah…Le Monde. Now there’s an unbiased source. And the French speaking of “lack of respect for other cultures” - Jesus, that man has a gift for humor.

[Duckster]

*Originally posted by Estilicon *
And also I never cese to be impress by people like you duckster that makes an accusation (propaganda) with out a single bit of evidence. I started this thread with good faith because I was outraged by what I read in this morning news. I can guarantee you that “La Nacion” is not anti-american. On the contrary I can’t say the same about “Le Monde”… never read it.

Well, you did post one side of the story and rsa posted what appears to be a more complete side of the story from a site that tomndebb states is no friend to the USA.

Why then are you so hung up on accusations without a cite, when you provided one, rsa provided another, tomndebb offered his later analysis, and common sense and a little forethought should indicate to most people propoganga is at work here?

Or do you take everything news item you read to be fair, objective and without any touch of bias, or dare I say, propoganda?

FWIW, I’m not aware that your media ranks on the world scale of accuracy and objectivity.

[clairobscur]

*Originally posted by Eva Luna *
**10. And for the record, does anyone know what’s required to get an Iranian visa, assuming I were even able to travel there on a U.S. passport? I don’t imagine the Iranian government would be happy to see me, either, as an American Jewish feminist with a big mouth.
**

Don’t take my word for this, but as a US citizen, you can get a visa for Iran. However, AFAIK, if it’s only for touristic purpose, you must be part of a tour group (not travelling alone). This latter restriction only applies to americans. Other westerners can travel there on their own.
These infos I gathered on travel websites, so once again I don’t guarantee their accuracy.

[clairobscur]

*Originally posted by Anthracite *
**

Oh yeah…Le Monde. Now there’s an unbiased source. And the French speaking of “lack of respect for other cultures” - Jesus, that man has a gift for humor. **

What’s your issue with “Le Monde”, exactly? I consider it (and by a large margin) the best and more reliable french newspaper.

[Estilicon]

I would like to point out Duckster that tomdebb “later analysis” was after you posted your reply. Ex post facto as a lawyer would say.
Anthracite I don’t think America is evil most times it is just stupid. It should try to do a better job in “International Public Relationships”.

[clayton_e]

It has gone way too far, I feel so sorry that stuff like this is happening.

[Rhum_Runner]

Care to elaborate there Clayton?

[Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor]

So, reason is out the window here, eh? :smack:

[Henry_B]

Anthracite wrote:

[quote]
Gee, Estilicon, haven’t you griped before about how evil Amerika and Amerikans are?

Are you going to comment on the Finnish rejection of Abbas Kiarostami’s visa? I would love to see you say the same sorts of things about the Finns that you have about America.[/qoute]

As a Finn, I can tell that they are just facists working in our immigration departement, customs etc. checking every guy that happens to be sunburned. It seems that there is a certain sort of people looking for these jobs.
In Sweden there was a study about racism within the customs.
The study was stamped secret. Now You wonder how I got to know about it? Don’t ask.

Anthracite wrote further:

Oh yeah…Le Monde. Now there’s an unbiased source. And the French speaking of “lack of respect for other cultures” - Jesus, that man has a gift for humor.

I am curious. What’s wrong with La Monde?
Is it that it publish stories that does not fit the American policy?

[Eva_Luna]

Henry, I think you messed up your coding in the quotes. Is this the part that was yours in the big quote above?

“As a Finn, I can tell that they are just facists working in our immigration departement, customs etc. checking every guy that happens to be sunburned. It seems that there is a certain sort of people looking for these jobs.
In Sweden there was a study about racism within the customs.
The study was stamped secret. Now You wonder how I got to know about it? Don’t ask.”

And as a former U.S. Dept. of Justice, Office of the Immigration Judge employee, I am officially asking how you know these things…if you don’t mind sharing!

[Henry_B]

Eva!

Yes! I messed it up exactly as You wrote. My bad spelling…

In the early 80’ties there was a group of psychology-students making a research in the customs of Stockholm.
Officially they had the task to research how the people acts walking through the customs.
In reality they recorded everything about how the customs were acting: Behaviour and different racistic comments, how many “dark-skinned” people (prosentually) are taken for “intense checking” etc.
The research was, as I told, stamped secret.
How I know? One of the students was my friend, and very critical going furious when she told about different incidents.

About the Finnish behaviour:

• I had a interpreter (Finnish girl) married to a guy from India. She was married to him and pregnat on the beginning of 9th month and the guy was not let into Finland. He was sent from Helsinki airport to London. No money, no honey. A long story.
• One of my friends was half Swedish and half Egyptian. His stories are just daily shit in Sweden and Finland.
• I am weekly sending sawn material from Russia to Finland, with Russian cars. You can just imagine.
• Earlier I and my Russian friend had an export terminal at the Russian-Finnish border, on the Russian side, and our staff crossed daily the border.

The Russian customs is hard and often they go after crazy rules, but You can still speak with them, but The Finnish is arrogant.
Not all, but some of them make me buke.

Just because I believe in building peace between countries, by the method of people travelling to the neighbouring countries, I usually invite some 4 - 7 Russians to Finland every year, that has never been anywhere abroad. I am always a little bit nervous about what is the first impression of Finland.
Some guys in the passport control are just letting as many Russians as possible to know that they are something “lower”, a little bit like “untermenschen”.
Then when a Russian has a “problem”, the Finnish customs sometimes pretend that they do not speak Russian, etc.
And if I begin to interprent, they ask: “Who are You?” and are not pleased me being there…

I had also an Afro-American friend. Curiously he had never any problems. It can be, because he had an American passport, but I do not know.

Just as a joke: I have a Finnish friend that goes weekly to Russia buying his cigarettes etc. much cheaper.
He was pissed off with the Finnish customs.
He and some of his Russian friends put a huge granite rock in his car in Russia. Then he drove to the customs.
They asked:"What’s that?

• “It’s a rock.”
• “Why do You bring it to Finland?”
• “I like it.”
  Naturally they investigated the rock, my friend commenting:“Careful. Careful.” and the whole car.
  Well, my friend had plenty of time and cigarettes.

(You maybe did know that we Finns are crazy, and even more crazy against the authorities? Learned a lot of “how to make a rotten life to the authorities that does not know when to bend the rules”, for 110 years under the tzar).

Personally I have (only) been once in court against the government. (Tax department). It was about three (3) dollars, but I did not like that the tax department “ruled” me to pay, when it was they that made a mistake. I won my case.