But it’s okay because they are French and everyone knows that the French are evil, evil, evil!! :rolleyes:
And it’s not like they were going to be covering Shrub, they were going to cover a fucking video games trade show.
Yes, some of them didn’t have press visas, but does that mean they should be subjected to no less then 6 body searches and interrogation sessions? :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Ummmm, not to rain on your rant, but it’s standard operating procedure to deny admission to people who do not possess a visa that permits the type of activity he plans to engage in during his stay in the U.S.
Yes, it was overkill IMO to body-search them at all, let alone 6 times. Yes, their traveling companions should have been made aware of the situation.
However, depending on what the journalists told the exammining officer, he/she may have decided the journalists were committing fraud by lying about the purpose of their visit or trying to enter the country with an incompatible visa. A business visa, or entry on the Visa Waiver Program, whic means entry as a visitor for up to 90 days with no visa required (as French people are eligible to do), does NOT allow for productive employment, such as providing journalistic coverage.
I’d like to see more detail about what actually happened before forming an opinion, but my guess is that the journalists couldn’t be bothered to apply and wait for the necessary I-visa, and so decided to see if they could get away without one. (Also, IIRC the I-visa for journalists isn’t available to freelancers, only to people employed by, or on contradt to, a foreign news organization.) And yes, committing fraud in most situations is a permanent bar from entry to the U.S.
WTF is a “body search”? It sounds to me like someone’s trying to make a simple pat-down sound like a body-cavity search. Yes, every time you’re moved, you get patted down – cry me a fuckin’ river. They were under arrest, fer godsake. The story is unclear, but apparently none of these people had the required visa, and a couple didn’t manage to sneak through.
Nice? The horrors! At least they weren’t sent back to Marseille.
(Think I can arrange to get sent back to Nice?)
(It does seem as though some of their treatment was unnecessary. Why did the L.A. folks pass the first two guys if they didn’t have the correct visas, then detain them and deport them only when they sought to check on their friend? I would also be curious about the “body searches.” Pat down? OK. Cavity search? Once, maybe. Of course, we currently have only one side of the story.)
i did not see any indication they were entering the USA intending to become employed there but rather that they were employed outside the USA which means they only require a B-1 (visitor for business) and not even that as France is on the Visa Waiver program.
Also, the fact that they were treated as others are routinely does not make it right, it just makes it normal. The USA has a really stupid policy in the way they interpret things. For example, if you have applied for an immigrant visa you will be denied entry on a non immigrant visa in the meanwhile because the INS interprets that you intend to stay even if illegally which is just ludicrous. If and when Americans are treated like this elsewhere Americans would feel indignant and rightly so. Just because the authorities have a rulebook which allows them to abuse people does not make it right.
Also note that some of them had been admitted already and they were then expelled just for asking what happened to the others.
Holding people unnecessarily and abusing them during that time is not what a civilized country is about. I have been the victim of a similar incident (in LAX too) and it was an awful experience which left a very deep scar in me. If you have not been through something like that you cannot imagine what it is like.
**sailor, ** the concept of “productive employment” is a quite fuzzy one. My firm tends to take a rather conservative approach and tell clients that meetings are OK, but not much else. Personally, I think coming to provide journalistic coverage of pretty much anything would constitute productive employment. If the various journalists went through different inspection lines, it doesn’t at all surprise me that they were questioned to different degrees, or that some were questioned and others got through with just a quick glance at the passport.
I’d also guess that the others were later expelled not “for asking what happened to the others,” but because they revealed information about themselves and the purpose of their visit in the process of doing so which made Inspections change their minds about whether it was a good idea to admit them in B-1 business visitor status (with or without a visa; we still don’t even know whether these guys had visas at all, which they wouldn’t necessarily have needed as French citizens). The fact that your employer is located outside the U.S. doesn’t at all prevent you from beeing deemed to have engaged in productive employment in the U.S., although this is one factor that is taken into consideration.
Again, a) I am guessing at what happened without much information, and b) this still doesn’t excuse treating them disrespectfully.
But believe me, I’ve found out after the fact about all kinds of clients’ activities in B-1 status, Visa Waiver Program entry or no, which there is no way in Hell they should have been doing in the status in which they entered. It happens all the time.
What sailor said: these guys weren’t seeking employment in the US. If I travel to the US for business, a normal visa will do just fine, since I will not work for a US firm, nor will I be able to collect US benefits.
If a press visa is such standard procedure, then why weren’t all 6 of them detained immediately? Would 4 of them have lied? Why? They were journalists coming over to report on a gaming convention: why would one hide that from a customs official?
Check out this link which, I think is the main page of the site linked to in the OP. North America, especially Canada are mostly free from hassles, reporter wise. I wonder if this is in response to the heightened alert status, Home security and all that.
As someone mentioned, we’re only hearing this from one source. One with a POV not entirely objective. :rolleyes:
Or----- the first guys slipped by in a procedural goof-up, the INS guys got reamed out by the supervisor, caught the second set, & overcompensated to “look good” in front of the boss.
Never attribute to malice what can be explained by incompetence, as the man said.
Again, I don’t know any detail about what happened. My guess would be, though, that the inspector didn’t initially question the ones who were let through the first time around. So nobody neccessarily lied; this also happens all the time. I have a client who just got married to a U.S. citizen; she was Canadian, and we advised her repeatedly that crossing over in B-2 status was a bad idea the week before her wedding, as if anyone had asked her any of the standard questions which are on visa applications (for those who are required to obtain a visa before entry, which Canadians generally aren’t), such as “do you have a fiance who is a U.S. citizen,” she could very well have been completely screwed. Having a U.S. citizen fiance, especially if your wedding is planned for the following week and you already have a job and an apartment lined up in the U.S., would probably be considered proof of immigrant intent, and therefore incompatible with B-1/B-2 status. But nobody ever asked her, so she was admitted repeatedly with no problems. She knew the risk, and decided she was willing to take it.
And please keep in mind that the concept of “engaging in productive employment” does NOT require that the employment be with a U.S.-based firm, or that one receive salary or benefits from a U.S.-based source. I can look up a more precise legal definition of productive employment when I am back at work tomorrow. Again, IANAL, but none of the immigration attorneys in my office would advise a client to take the risk of doing something like covering a convention in one’s capacity as a journalist without obtaining an I visa first. A B-1 visa (or admission in B-1 business visitor status under the Visa Waiver program) is just not the same thing. It allows for meetings, discussions, and that sort of thing, but IM somewhat educated O, journalistic coverage crosses the line into productive employment.
Another hypothesis: it used to take a couple of days max to get an I-visa in Paris or most West European consulates, but processing time has recently been climbing like crazy due to new directives to interview a much higher proportion of visa applicants before visa issuance. It used to be that for most EU nationals, you could mail in your application or drop it off in the mailbox in front of the Consulate, and have your visa back in a couple of days. I spoke at length about this with the Chief of the nonimmigrant visa section in Paris a couple of months ago, and she was bitching that she was going to be expected to do five times the work with the same staff and resources, so you can just imagine how efficient things are going to get in the coming months. Many people are not accustomed to having to plan that far ahead, so they try to get around it by using the B-1 category for purposes which it was not mean for. I’d guess that the journalists may have done the same.
if that is not utterly stupid I don’t know what is.
And again, the INS has a long, long history of abuses and screwups on top of their utterly stupid regulations. Having stupid regulations is one thing. Enforcing them stupidly another. being abusive to people’s dignity is totally unacceptable and that happens every day. From where I stand this looks like business as usual. It happens all the time and only surfaces when they get the wrong person by mistake like when they get an American citizen or a foreigner of some influence. Totally unacceptable. if Americans were treated like that in Europe The USA would not stand for it.
sailor, you know my opinions well enough to know that I will be the first to criticize immigration authorities when they are being stupid. But I think it’s too soon to judge this particular situation with so little info. Is it really that much of a burden to have to apply for an I visa if you are a journalist on assignment? They are granted routinely, and really don’t require that much in the way of documentation, or even a petition filed in advance with the BCIS (formerly INS) as most other categories of work visas do.
And yes, philosophically I have a lot of problems with the whole “intending immigrant” issue and the way it is enforced. But that’s outside the scope of the OP.
Eva Luna, you are the exoert regarding the regulations and i am not arguing with you about that. the regulations may be whatever they happen to be. I am just stating my opinion on whether they should be a certain way and about how the system works in practice. The fact that a regulation exists does not mean i agree that is a good thing.
French people can enter the USA for business purposes with no visa for up to three months. Let us suppose journalists are required to get a visa. Do I think that is right? No, I do not think that is right. It looks too much like censorship to me. But, again, going beyond that, the way people are treated by immigration officials in some instances is totally unacceptable.
You say we cannot judge this particular incident with the information we have. Well, I have a pretty good idea because I have heard plenty of incidents like this before. Some of them quite recently. Not only people trying to enter the country but people who are merely in transit are harrassed and abused.
The Oregonian, of Portland, Oregon, was awarded the Pulitzer prize for this series of articles exposing abuses and corruption in the Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS).
Oh believe me, I know better than most people how ridiculous, unreasonable, invasive, and abusive the system can be, or at least anyone who hasn’t been on the “wrong” end of the system him/herself. My own ex-boyfriend, years ago, was denied a visitor visa, and that was even without informing the Consulate in Leningrad that he was coming to see me (we had a mutual friend fill out the official invitaiton, which was then required to get a Soviet exit visa). I could also go on and on wth the anecdotes.
However, there is nothing in this story to suggest that censorship was involved. The procedure for getting an I visa is relatively straightforward; basically, you just have to present a brief letter from your employer stating either that they employ you or are contracting with you to cover a particular issue/event, and you get your visa. No INS petition is required; everything is adjudicated by the Consulate. I’ve never heard of a problem with a journalist being refused a visa for political reasons; if you have, I’d love to know more.
It is, however, taking 3-4 weeks in Paris these days to get a visa appointment, I’m told, and many journalists may not be able to wait that long. I wouldn’t be at all surprised that as delays grow, more people try to circumvent the visa issuance procedure. If they’ve done this before, they should be aware that they are taking a risk in doing so, aand as border processing is tightened more and more, the risk becomes greater and greater.
I am in Europe, France, Germany, Italy ETC., on an inappropriate, forged, illegal, or falsified paper work and when it is found, I will be treated just exactly how well?
I try to circumvent their laws ( good or bad ) and they will?
I already gave you a cite you moron. Read the Oregonian articles and then YOU give me a cite showing exactly what European country has such an inefficient, corrupt and abusive Immigration Department.
Many people abused by the INS are breaking no laws and even people breaking the law deserve to be treated like human beings. Especially when the INS cannot get its own house in order.
You said this. It sounds like you are saying that Americans are not treated like that in Europe. You make this statement with no qualifications. So that means NEVER.
Now we can call each other names, if so, you need to take lessons, ::: Ho Hum :::
You can admit that you are just Bashing the US of A and the INS in particular. ( INS needs it ) But the blatant US of A bashing without a cite is silly and petty and way beneath one of your sterling character and stature. :: snicker ::::::
But if you are going to insinuate that the all of Europe does not EVER doing anything wrong and is ALWAYS civil and proper and humane, which you are doing by not putting ANY qualifier on your statement that is quoted above, then it is YOUR responsibility to prove such an outlandish assumption / statement.