Well, there’s the guy (an Iranian granted refugee status in Belgium) who lived at Charles de Gaulle for ten years after losing his passport. But I’m sure the bread was better there.
Yes, there’s a Straight Dope column about him. This of course proves my point. The guy was denied admission into france but was pretty much set free under his word that he would not leave the airport. The USA under similar circumstances incarcerates people and there are dozens who have committed no crimes but have been rotting in American jails for years because they cannot be deported to any country. At least this guy was free to roam about the airport legally and to leave the country if he wished.
Ummmm, **sailor, ** other than the ridiculousness that is the USA PATRIOT Act, people are not held indefinitely in the U.S. unless they have been convicted of a crime, even if they cannot be deported anywhere. They can be held for six months past the end of their criminal sentences, and then they must be released in some form (under parole or whatever), unless and until they commit another crime or are placed in detention associated with removal proceedings.
At least, that was how it worked back when I worked for Immigration Court. Our office was the one lucky enough to cover Leavenworth Federal Penitentiary, where a good number of Marielitos were held – the, ummm, interesting folks that Castro let sail for Florida on rafts once he decided to empty out Cuba’s prisons and mental hospitals. They were imprisoned for criminal convictions, and our office used to send a team out there once a month or so to hold deportation proceedings in the prison. Boy, you haven’t lived until you’ve taken a business trip to a prison.
Given, I’ve been out of that line of work for a few years now, and things may have changed somewhat.
I could be mistaken, of course. I am basing my information on a TV segment I saw (60 minutes?) which said US courts have held that once the INS orders a deportation, if that deportation cannot be carried out, the individual can be held indefinitely. I vaguely remember it was related to some riots by Cubans held in a Louisiana jail. I will try to search for a cite regarding the court ruling.
At any rate and looking at the big picture, there are plenty of horror stories from people who have travelled to the USA and a few of them have been posted in this board and many have been reported in the news. I do not think there is anything which compares to that in Europe (even though I am the first one to bash midless bureaucrats regardless of national origin, gender or creed). I have no trouble bashing whoever does wrong so, even if it were proven that European authorities were just as bad, that woud still not make the INS right and I would condemn the Europeans like I condemn the INS.
We have heard news of people who were in transit in the USA, not even attempting to enter, and were detained and harassed and sometimes sent back. I have never heard of that happening in Europe. I am quite sure the European bureaucracies are just as stupid and inefficient as the INS but I have not heard of people being deported for minor infractions, much less when they were often caused by the bureaucracy, like has happened in the USA. We had a thread about this some months ago. The Oregonian articles paint a dismal state of things. an INS riddled with abuse, corruption and inefficiency. My personal experience confirms that. My personal experience also says Europe is not so bad in that regard. if someone says Europe is just as bad I want some evidence. We know plenty of cases of abuse by the INS. Many from this board. I can supply a few more. Now, where is all the evidence showing European authorities are just as bad?
And, as you know hundreds, if not thousands, have been detained for long periods of time on very minor technicalities, many not even of their own fault, then they have been deported without any kind of process. People who had lived in the USA all their lives, people who were married and had kids. Rounded up, locked up for months without being accused of anything and then deported. Under the excuse of “fighting terrorism” all sorts of abuses are being committed.
Sorry but to me all this is unacceptable in a civilised country. If European countries did it I would condemn them too. I am just not aware that they do it.
Sailor, you seem to have an axe to grind, what happened. Kicked out of the country by the INS as a baby???
[sub]just kidding, but do lighten up![/sub]
Eva Luna, I consider this point to be of minor importance in the overall picture of the state of things with the INS. My opinion would not change much one way or the other because of this but I looked it up anyway. Reading a judgment will give you a serious headache. Trying to understand it will drive you crazy. Anyway, I hope I have interpreted this right and if not I expect to be corrected by those who understand judge-speak.
KESTUTIS ZADVYDAS, was stateless and had lived as a resident in the USA most of his life. He was convicted of a crime and then ordered deported by the INS but there was no country where he could be deported to. The district court ruled he could not be held indefinitely but the INS appealed to the 5th circuit court of appeals who reversed and ruled he could be detained indefinitely based on an earlier case with Cubans:
Upon further research it appears that the SCOTUS reversed that decision and ruled that the prisoners should be given periodic hearings to determine if they are eligible for parole
So, it did not mean he had to be freed but that his case should be reheard. It seems there were about 5000 people detained indefinitely because they cannot be deported (they are known as “lifers”).
The law is so complicated that one needs to be a lawyer to fully understand it. It is full of exceptions and considerations and, frankly, I have no intention of getting a law degree any time soon. As I say, this does not change the main facts of the INS mess which is described in the Oregonian pretty well.
So it seems you are technically correct but, in fact, many people have, in fact, been held for years before this ruling which is full of considerations and complications. The law is so complicated that one needs to be a lawyer to fully understand it.
I’d like to point out that the UK issued Hong Kong residents “Right Of Abode” Passports that effectively blocked them from traveling to the UK, & prevented them from living inside the country that governed them, & other European nations happily nodded & went along with this, & also made it damn near impossible for HK residents to move to Europe.
Put this in context with the PRC’s takeover of the Colony, & the not unrealistic fears of mass executions that many Hong Kong residents had, & I think you will find that this unbelievably cynical & blatantly racist policy is at least as bad as the US conduct.
The fact that the Red Chinese didn’t slaughter HK dissidents is irrelavant. Tienamin Square shows that the could have. It took place mere months before the handover.
Bosda this it is quite irrelevant to the topic of this thread and quite a hijack but I will address it anyway because I have a personal interest in the topic and because I believe you are quite wrong in some points. I first visited HK in 1997 and every year after that and I followed the transition quite closely. I admired Chris Patten in the way he dealt with the Chinese and I believe he made the best of the situation. So, let me address your points.
The UK did not grant the Chinese in HK full British citizenship but no other colonial power has done it either and it is not a matter of race at all. The British did not do it in India and the USA did not do it in the Philippines (nor does it intend to do it in Iraq or Afghanistan) and I do not think they had any obligation or responsibility to do it. The fears of mass executions are your pure invention. There never was such fear and thanks to the 50 year agreement with the British, HK retains a high level of freedom and autonomy. There was no mass exodus and no serious fear of mass executions or any serious repression. That is your imagination, not reality.
I now think it was 1996 when I first visited HK. My memory is hazy. A few more points: HK has about 6.5 million people and it was estimated that in 1997 about 10% of the native Chinese had also a foreign passport as a safeguard. Many bought Canadia passports (via investments). Quite a few did leave but many did return after their fears proved unfounded.
Other European countries “nodded and went along” in the same way that the USA “nodded & went along”: it was none of their damn business because this was a bilateral issue between the UK and China.
The Department of State paints a pretty good picture:
Sorry, the link for the Department of State page is http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/2747.htm
I’d like to share a small anecdote as an example of the existing absurdities that plague immigration/border security services in general. This one is not related to the INS but I’m certain it applies.
When I obtained a visa for the U.S, I had to pick a flight going from Casablanca to Miami. There were about a dozen Airlines that offered this service and none of them offered direct flights to Miami. I had two choices:
Book a ticket with Air Maroc from Casablanca to New York, then switch planes and board a plan from New York to Miami.
Book a ticket with one of a dozen European airlines and make a stop in one of the Capitals (Paris, Rome, Amsterdam, Madrid,etc.) then board a plane from there to Miami.
As it turned out, all the Air Maroc flights were booked so I took the next cheapest thing available (which also happened to be the fastest flight) with Air Iberia which required a stop in Madrid.
As it turned out, once I got to the Barajas airport in Madrid, I learned that in order for me to board the second plane, I had to go through a “free” section of the airport. Free meaning it’s past the border inspectors and the spanish immigration services. So I virtually had to ENTER spain, then EXIT spain and technically, to do so, I had to carry a spanish visa, which I did not. Right there, I could have been forcefully and legally deported to Morocco. But I was lucky and the guy who handled my passport thought about it for a few minutes, looked long and hard at my american visa, at some expired spanish visas that were also there, asked me a handful of questions, then reluctantly allowed me to pass. Lucky me.
And as I walked past the main airport entrance, watching the inviting cabs gobble tourists and head towards the heart of the ciry, I could hear lady irony laughing for I had been denied* a fourth spanish visa a few months before all of this happened. And off to the plane I headed, a smile on my face.
*-Denying me that visa was an illogical, hypocritical (dare I say stupid?) move from the spanish embassy. See, when you get a student visa for Spain, you have to go to the police station within 3 months to “swap it” for a student card that lasts one year. The first year, I did everything right. The second year, I was 6 months late in “swapping” but the guy at the police station said it didn’t matter (wow! he must have been expelled from the Saint Order of Bureaucrats since then) and gave me no problems at all. The third year, I forgot altogether and had to reapply for a new visa back in Morocco (once again, without a hitch). the fourth year, I was late again but the police station in Malaga (I had been in Granada til then) said that they couldn’t swap it (then how come it was done once before?) and said that the simplest thing to do was just to request another visa while I was back in Morocco. But then, the spanish consulate employee who handled my visa request turned out to be picky and refused to issue me a visa. Why? I was bringing good money into the country through bank transfers since I wasn’t allowed to work (not like there was much work available anyways). I had been a lawful resident, never involved in any problems, always paid my tuition fees, obviously not a potential illegal immigrant either. The thing is, That was right after Morocco’s refusal to renew the fishing agreement it had with Spain until then (a political crisis that escalated into the mini-conflict over that rock called isla perejil you all know). I’m not complaining about what happened mind you. I could have avoided it had I not been so lazy (the laid back way of life of southern Spain didn’t help there admittedly) and so allergic to paperwork and lines. So I plead guilty there. But it shows you a lot about how selectively and randomly rules are enforced and how logic and self interest are often ignored by the fanatic members of the SOB. Anyhow, I didn’t really need to go to Spain, I just wanted to chill there for a few months while I waited for my u.s visa was issued.
Wow, I have rambled far more than I thought I had. Well, I guess this just goes to show you that…hum…that…errr…I’m certain some lesson can be extracted from this! Anyone?
well, seeing how you have repeatedly run into trouble, in several countries and several continents, for not keeping up with the bureaucracy, I would say one lesson that may be learnt is that some people never learn _
Your experience in spain shows a couple of things: (a) the bureaucracy in Spain is just as fucked up and as stupid as that of the INS but (b) the Spanish bureacrat at least realized that and let you through whereas the American bureaucrat, full of self righteousness, would have denied you entry and shipped you back because rules are rules and he is not paid to think. If there is a kind of people I hate and despise are the mindless morons who think the people are supposed to serve the bureaucracy and not the other way around. Unfortunately they abound everywhere, in every country and every organization.
Oh my goodness! you really are naive and inexperienced! Never fly with Iberia! Even if they offer to pay you to do it!
Beware Alitalia and shun Iberian my son!
The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
[bump]
An update from the State Dept., with a citation of relevant law:
"DOS Cable Urges Posts to Remind Foreign Media of the Need to Seek ‘I’ Visas
P 062010Z JUN 03
FM SECSTATE WASHDC
TO ALL DIPLOMATIC AND CONSULAR POSTS PRIORITY
SPECIAL EMBASSY PROGRAM PRIORITY
AMEMBASSY DUSHANBE PRIORITY
AMEMBASSY KABUL PRIORITY
AMEMBASSY KHARTOUM PRIORITY
DIR FSINFATC WASHDC PRIORITY
UNCLAS STATE 155061
FOR CONSULAR SECTION CHIEFS AND NIV CHIEFS
E.O. 12958: N/A
TAGS: CVIS, CMGT
SUBJECT: JOURNALISTS AND “I” VISAS
-
CA has become aware of an increasing number of cases of journalists denied entry at POE after attempting to enter either on a B visa or under the Visa Waiver Program (VWP). As posts are aware, aliens coming to practice journalism are not eligible to come on VWP or a B visa. VWP provides for the visa-free entry of nationals of designated countries coming to the United States for tourism or business (B visa purposes) for a period not to exceed 90 days. INA 101(a)(15)(B) states that a B status is not appropriate for representatives of foreign press, radio, film, or other foreign information media coming to engage in such vocation. Therefore, as a matter of law, journalists cannot use the Visa Waiver Program or a B visa to enter for the purpose of pursuing their profession. Journalists who attempt to do so, rather than apply for entry with an I visa, will be subject to removal.
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Posts should take advantage of all available opportunities to remind local contacts, including journalists but also the general public, of the proper use of VWP and B status."
So see? Sometimes the Feds aren’t really as evil as you might think. And believe me, I’ll be the first to criticize them when they are.
P.S. INA stands for Immigration and Nationality Act.
Um… 97 months, yes.
The Tiananmen massacre was 4 June 1989; the handover was 1 July 1997.
Did you mean something else?