I have acknowledged at least four times that deadly force should be used as an absolute LAST resort because whether it is the law or not, I do not believe a human being has the right to take life from another human being.
Hear me clearly; if every other option is exhausted and the loved one (or stranger, I care about all people) is still in danger, then perhaps the assailant must be killed.
I am against people killing other people. I am also against people raping other people. But if there’s a way to stop someone from raping someone without killing them, I’d like for that method to be used.
I understand where you’re coming from, I think what’s throwing us off is that surely you care about some people over others. I agree that it should be the last option used, but realistically with a 30 second window of opportunity. getting to the point quickly is tantamount.
Well, as someone who wouldn’t even hold a gun in her hand, I’d have to make an alternate decision.
Not everyone in the world is armed, but those of us who aren’t are still obligated by social contract to try and do something. That was the point of the OP. No one did anything, gun or no gun, they just stood there and watched.
I don’t like you? News to me. Actually, I guess I don’t like you but I don’t dislike you either. I’m pretty neutral. Sometimes I think you’re great, other times you irritate the hell out of me. Pretty average as far as my opinion on most regular posters go. I try to react to the post, not the poster.
Anyway, I think Zoff nailed it again. Your lack of articulation seems to surround issues you’re passionate about. I think that’s where I got my Techchick reference. At times you get so impassioned and that, combined with poor articulation of your position comes across as “preparing for a meltdown”. At least as far as the history of this forum goes.
If you want to dismiss my post because you think I don’t like you, fine. If you’re going to make a habit of that type of behavior though please let me know so I can put you on “ignore.” That way I won’t be tempted to waste any more keystrokes composing posts that are going to be dismissed due to my user name.
Whatever you say lezlers. I did what you asked and backed down from my position. I don’t dismiss anything you say, as I often agree with you in many threads…but you’ve handed my ass to me before, and I don’t appreciate being compared to techchick.
Even if you absolutly hate guns, it would be a good thing to learn how to handle and shoot one. Even if you never have to do it IRL, it’s better to know how to handle a firearm and never use one, than to need one and not know what you’re doing.
I don’t expect to ever need to administer CPR, but I’m glad I know how just in case.
No thanks. I appreciate that you are a gun enthusiast, I find them horrifyingly repulsive, and even if I knew how to use it, I wouldn’t be able to. I physically cannot imagine myself taking someone’s life, and that hesitation would make a gun in my hands useless.
I’m hesitant to post this, because I don’t want you to think I’m jumping all over you. I’m honestly curious.
If you don’t believe you could use one, then by all means stay away from them. I was just wondering how you came to find guns, as inanimate objects, repulsive. To me, they’re just tools like any other, and I can’t internalize an emotional reaction to a tool.
I know you’re not alone in feeling this way, and I think that if I understood why you do I might figure out how to explain to people that owning a few shotguns and rifles doesn’t make me a bad, evil man.
Of course, as inanimate objects they are not scary…it’s in the hands of people. For every one of you who are perfectly trained with an impeccable shooting record there are hundreds of people who are not. A gun in my house could get stolen, used against me, used against my husband, my dog. My high strung nature and constant anxiety could cause me to shoot someone on accident or without cause (I’d rather let some steal my stereo than blow them away). My neighborhood is riddled with gunshots every night and I’m sure it’s not target shooting. Me having a gun won’t prevent a stray bullet from grazing me or my dog on our nightly walk.
Everything could conceivably be a weapon, I know, my cousin was beaten to death with a baseball bat, but I’ve seen enough pictures of a pistol to the head or in the mouth to put me off marksmanship forever.
Even with years of painstaking training…ACCIDENTS HAPPEN and I would not be able to live with myself for a moment if it happened because of me.
jar, you are a model of compassion. In this context I use compassion as an equivalent for love, as in “love your enemies,” etc. Frankly, it is admirable. I’m not there by a long shot.
I don’t know where your compassion comes from, and there’s lots of options. You may have gotten it from a Christian (in the purist sense) perspective; you may have gotten it from cultural conditioning; or perhaps living is more precious to you than life.
I can’t be in your head, but just from reading your posts here I’ve come to the conclusion that the rape you suffered has really fucked up your life. I’m convinced you would be a totally different person, probably a whole lot happier, if the rape had been avoided. Your life was taken from you, but you got another one, not quite as nice, in its place.
I don’t know about the rapist, how his mistake has affected his life, but I’d bet dollars to donuts you got the worse end of the deal.
Now I’m not so naieve as to believe in justice. I’ve been around long enough to realize there is no such thing, just revenge, retaliation, satisfaction and dissatisfaction. And I realize that all life is precious, a “gift” so to speak, and we pretty much assume it’s a one-shot deal for each of us. So taking a life is not something one does lightly.
(Hereinafter, in this post, you = “one,” and is not to be taken as a personal pronoun)
Yet we all die, eventually, and you don’t really take a life when killing someone, you just shorten their time on Earth. You take away some of their time, and we’re not sure what they get in return – heaven, hell or oblivion.
When you impact someone’s life with something like a rape, you take their life, too. You take the time they would have had and replace it with a different life, something different than they would have chosen. The difference between one and the other is vast, however. A trauma victim still has the ability (though that ability may not be as effective as before) to choose a path. We don’t know what choices, if any, the dead receive.
In my life I’ve seen a lot of death, and I’ve come to terms with it. We all die, and it’s just a matter of when. I don’t take it lightly, though; I’m not the one to decide when that time is. I’ve seen a lot of trauma, too; I’ve seen lives so messed up that the people might as well be dead, and I think that the point of all this rambling comes down to this:
Killing is not the only way to take away someone’s life.
I sincerely hope you can do what you need to do to get a happy, fulfilling life.
Isn’t this all about the tools present at the moment of the crime? If I had a cell phone (which surprisingly not every American owns) I’d use it. If I had a tazer, I’d use it. If I were a 6’5 kickboxer, I’d use my skills to kick that bastard’s ass.
The people present at that incedent were obviously devoid of rational thinking, and the guts to do something about a terrible crime occuring. Hence the Pit thread.
Calling 911 will sometimes not get a response before it’s too late (if you have a cell), shouting “hey there” can get you shot, rushing the guy can get you stabbed, and drawing down on the guy can get you a murder charge.
I think the main issue here is that people have to do something when they witness such a thing. What they have to work with makes all the difference in the world. If all witnesses present were previous rape victims and frozen in fear, certainly they couldn’t be blamed for inaction. Are we assuming that there was no trauma involved with the witnesses?
The posters that have advocated firearms IMO are just demonstrating their willingness to be the solution to the problem. The “waste 'em” remarks aside, I think most people would just deal with presenting the ultimatum before actually going for the kill. If a guy’s going to be scared away by someone yelling “hey stop”, I think a pistol pointed at him might have the same effect.
Most of this has been discussed here at length, and issues have been resolved. It is certainly not my intention to stir up shit here, I just found this thread and thought I needed to say a few things.
I cannot tolerate rape in any form, and my violent outbursts may be disliked by the victims, if that’s bad, so be it. During the commission of such a vile act, the aggressor’s well being is the absolute last of my concerns. The things I would do, and go through, in order to prevent a five hour rape ordeal are without limits. It seems that some people don’t feel this way about it. I strongly disagree with them.
Thanks for responding, jar. May I address you as jar? I’d prefer that, because there’s less typing involved. I’d also prefer that, because written English isn’t my preferred mode of comunication. You can just call me Ex, if it helps.
I think I’m starting to understand. You are projecting the possible future intentions of the user on to the object. I don’t know how to address that, other than to say something you have probably heard many times before: the craftsman controls his tool, it doesn’t work the other way around.
Evil resides in the hearts of men, not in the means they choose to realize their goals.
Can I call you Ex too? I thought your first post in this discussion was a ray of rationality that I was just waiting to say myself.
Asking Jarbabyj to detatch her association with guns from her understanding them as tools seems futile to me. I can say “you can kill a guy just as well with a knife” as many times as I want, but the notion that guns have only one purpose, which is to kill, is always the response. That’s conditioned.
Contrary to the beliefs that many scientific-minded people hold, objective reason is not always the best way to soothe an injured person.
But your point is stupid. YOU’RE the one that assumed the worst about Duffer’s words. YOU’RE the one that went on a psychotic “I wouldn’t kill anything anywhere!” tirade.
Frankly, I find it frightening that you automatically assume that a gun will inevitably kill someone.
From your desciption of events, I would not call what he did a “grievous and terrible” mistake. I would call it a cruel and heartless act commited by a cruel person and I feel, with ample justification, that he should do some serious time behind bars. Sadly, it ain’t up to me. But it was no mistake. We really need to stop using that word to describe deliberate actions.
Nah, I’ll be a model of compassion when I stop thinking bad things about people. I get angry still, and fly off the handle (as seen in this thread), I still call names…blah blah blah…
Well, I respectfully disagree. The rape happened nearly 16 years ago. I’m married happily for ten years, have a fine sex life, and I don’t think my bouts of anxiety and depression are as a result of what he did to me so long ago. There are times when I don’t even think about it for weeks at a time. There are women in this world who lost their lives in the midst of a rape, or were mutilitated or beaten within an inch of their life, those are the women that deserve the attention in this regard.
Your thoughts are interesting though and provoking.
Blalron I don’t know that I’m a pacifist. I am against the death penalty, and I could never take another’s life, but I do understand that there are just and necessary wars. I went through all this shit months ago when everyone was having a big ol’ party about the killing of Uday and Qusay. I didn’t find it a GLEEFUL thing, I just found it to be the equivalent of putting down a sick and rabid dog and more a reflection of the sickness of our society.
These are things I’m still dealing with at 31. I suppose i should make some rock solid decisions on what I believe.