Labor satisfaction is just one of several issues I consider important in whether a country sets a good example and is worth emulating or not. By labor satisfaction I am essentially just asking ‘do people like their jobs in that country’. I assume that national policy has at least some role in this as national policy can affect unemployment, compensation, job security, the rights of workers, etc.
As far as low wage workers, I don’t think its even a competetion as to whether the US or EU will have higher ‘labor satisfaction’. Universal healthcare access, lower college costs and a higher minimum wage would make most working poor choose to live in France or Denmark IMO.
I do not know if the number of strikes is a good sign of anything, it could be a bad sign too and a sign that workers in the US do not have organizations that protect their interests as much as EU countries.
And I have seen stats saying that US workers work closer to 2000 hours a year
This still shows US workers making more money then French workers even when you calculate them working the same number of hours annually, if you do that the French make closer to 28k. However I personally would rather make $3 an hour less in France (which is what an extra 5k a year consists of as far as hourly wage increases. $3/hr is also about $2 after taxes) and not have to pay high insurance premiums and have lower college costs. At least I would prefer that if I were working poor, which I am I guess.
It’s not adressed specifically at you, ** pervert **, but I would really like that we would forget this “number of nobel prizes” crap. Even assuming that the number of Nobel prizes is actually directly linked to the quality of the education system, or to the efficiency of R/D or whatever else, there are so few nobel prizes attributed over a short period of time (including all the nobel prizes since say, 1900 would be nonsentical when discussing the current situation) that it’s statistically completely meaningless.
It looks to me like saying : “I’ve five neighbors, and I suspect 4 of them will vote republican, so Bush will win with 80% of the votes”
Damn. I looked forward to reading that article figuring it would propose a theory for the wide disparity. Instead it turned out to be a liberal call to action. I also wish the author defined his fricking terms, i.e. povery, economic inequality, etc…
I was thinking about a study I read the results of, and that is conducted annually, but since I can’t remember its name, I can’t back my statement.
I remember that while the USA was ranked, if not at the top of the list for the productivity/ year, at least close to it, it ranked only 20th or so for the productivity/ hour, left behind by most west european countries. The first place was held by an unlikely country, maybe Belgium.
As I said, I can’t back my statement, but I’m not convinced productivity is calculated simply by dividing the GNP by the number of hour worked (also, I would note that concerning the number of hours worked, it seems that the estimates given for the same country in different studies tend to differ significantly). Since I remember where I read these results, I might try to find the figures, though, but I won’t guarantee I’ll find them.
That’s fair enough to me. I don’t particularly want to say that the number of Nobel Prizes indicates much anyway. I only included it because it occured next to the patent figure. That to me is more indicitive of inovation or R&D.
And to reiterate. I was not claiming that either of these numbers proves that America is definately more inovative than Europe. Personally I think there are enough difficulties in reducing such a thing to a measurement that any such measurement is meaningless. I was only trying to suggest that Wesley Clark’s assertion that Europe is “hands down” better on various areas (R&D in this case) was not supportable. Not that America is better, just that Europe is not “hands down” better.
Is that at all clear? Sometimes I rant.
This is the assertion I have trouble with. Universal health care has been a bugaboo of the left for a long time. I agree there is a problem in America, but there are problems elsewhere too. The fact is that Americ may not be at the top of the life expectancy or even the percentage of life lived in ill health, but it is not nearly as far away from others as the rankings make it seem. Life expectance in the US as compared to France is 77.14 years compared to 79.28 years. And once again, this is with a very different culture. The higher murder rate in America (.04 per 1000 compared to France’s .01 per 1000) would tend to lower our life expectancy. But it does not do so in a correlating manner.
Finally, France may have a higher minimum wage, but it also has a higher unemployment rate and a higher number of regulations regarding hiring and firing of emplyees. That is more hoops to jump through to move jobs. Certainly freedom of movement would register on your “labor satisfaction” index?
Once again, my point is not that America is best while Europe is worst. I am just as sick of that assertion as I am of the assertion you are making, Wesley Clark that Europe is best (in this area) while America is worst. It is simply not true. The real situation is much more complicated than your “hands down” or “don’t think its even a competetion” characterizations make it seem.
Some people would certainly prefer to live in Europe. Some in America. I think it is ignorant to claim that one is “hands down” better or that there isn’t “even a competition”.
Fair enough. I just wanted to show that America and Europe are not so far apart. 60 in America vs 67 in France. If there are vast differences in employee disatisfaction wouldn’t you expect to see some difference here?
Except that you have not shown either of these things to be true. At least not in a “hands down” way. I respect your opinion. If you would rather go to France fine. Remember, that higher college tuition and insurance premiums might not be the only things you give up. They also have a higher rate of long term unemployment. You might spend much longer out of work. They have a much more regulated hiring and firing system. You might have to jump through more hoops to get work when you find a job. And finally, they have a much more restrictive system for gaining citizenship. You might have to wait a much longer time before your transplantation carried all of the rights you now enjoy as an American citizen.
The second link from Wesley Clark had the info you were looking for.
“*The figures for output per hour worked show Norway, France and Belgium ahead of the US since the mid 1990s. In 2002 Norway had an output per hour worked of about USD38, followed by France at USD35, Belgium at USD34 and the US at 32 (figures are rounded off to the nearest dollar), thus showing that part of the gap between the US and Europe in output per person employed is due to differences in hours worked. *”
I’m willing to accept a difference in the productivity per hour of workers. As always, however, remember that different countries report this differently.
Pssssssst Shayna. I was talking directly to Wesley Clark. And more generally to those who think that Americans have it “hands down” worse than the French.
I have talked to friend clairobscur a few times. I have always found him informative and very intelligent. I learned a lot about the French health care system and tax structure in another thread specifically due to his participation.
Sorry if responding to two people in one post confused you.
I’ve worked for two US giants in Ireland in the past, IBM and Motorolla.
I trained in the US and Canada for IBM. We had much more aggressive targets on quality and production that either the Canadian or US operation. We hit them all while everyone had 22 days holidays and the opportunity to buy up to eight more or put the money to extra health insurance or your pension. Also anyone whose work pattern allowed had flexitime available to them. The company paid for any college course once it was vaguely realted to technology or production. Some of these courses ran in the company itself and shift workers could attend them during their work time without having to make up time etc… Also anyone doing 3rd level exams could take a week paid leave before the exam to prepare on top of thier normal. All these benefits existed in a US company for everyone from the lowest production operative to the head of production. The plant still was one of the most productive and quality driven plants in the whole of the microelectronic division. We just worked liked bastards when we had to
The Americans I worked with had a different work ethic that we did. They seemed to care more about their job and really had a passion for getting things right. This didn’t actually make them produce more however it just kinda made them more serious about things.
I really like our system over here and have no intention of ever leaving. My present company also has the holiday buying option which I avail of so get 29 days a year + all the public one which brings it to ~40 days a year. I can also transfer unused holidays to the next year so can really take a long break if planned properly.
A lot of Americans seem happy with their system too so it’s all good
I think the US(workforce at least) would benefit from taking some of Europe’s attitude to work v’s leisure time and Europe would benefit from taking some of American dynamism and flexibility.
Oh and I’ll add that all the big multinationals over here would have the same benefits. They aren’t just small European branches either.
Intel has a huge plant here and the majority of Intel chips are manufactured there. HP, Dell, IBM have production and support centers here employing multiple 1000’s each.
Do we get benefits from US hard work? Most definitely but hey it’s like all your good TV. You pay for it on HBO etc. and we then get it for free* over here.
Meanwhile, the average years if schooling for adults is 12 years in America as compared to 7.9 in France.
I just don’t understand how this figure could be accurate. Given that schooling is mandatory for all between 6 and 16 in France, then barring exceptionnal circumstances, everybody has to attend school for at least 10 years. And most children actually enter school when they turn 4 and of course, a large number study past 16. How could the average be 2 years less than 10? Or is it that “schooling” only refers to secondary and tertiary education?
I get 2 weeks (10 days) of vacation a year. My office manager wandered down to my office the other day to remind me that I had 7 days of vacation left for the year. I told him I didn’t care. After he pushed me on it and reminded me that they don’t “roll over”, I begrudgingly took the last week of the year off, I figure that’s about as slow as it gets. He then said, “Ok, that leaves 2”. :rolleyes:
If I can be gone for more than a week, they must not really need me.
It’s interesting that in so many of these posts, people associate time off from work with being lazy or being a slacker.
Most of the people I know in Europe, and in Asia for that matter, **do things ** with their time off. Sometimes quite productive things.
Is that not the case in the US? Are holidays usually spent in front of the TV?
Maybe this is a reason for differences in opinion regarding the benefits of leisure time.
But if that right is built into business practice, then it’s expected, and nobody is in more danger of being deemed unnecessary than anyone else. Everything goes on hold or people cover. In my company, a 2- or 3-week annual vacation is de rigeur for everyone, and they sure as hell need every single member of staff.
Personally the thought of not taking a (foreign) vacation at least once every year would make me suicidal. YM clearly V!
I read something once that said if you ask an American what they do, they’ll respond by stating their job, “I’m a banker/businessman/factory worker/etc.” If you ask a European what they do, they’ll respond by stating their hobbies, “I water ski/paint/play sports/etc.” Might be apocryphal, but if even partly true it would explain a lot about how Americans see their lives. (And by the way, most Americans do spend their vacations in front of the tube; when I worked at Walmart nobody ever went on a vacation with their vacation time, they all said they were using it to “catch up on their stories” (soap operas). Depressing.)
I really hate the whole “work is a virtue, you have to work hard to be anything” ethic. Because nine times out of ten the person saying it isn’t referring to just any work, they’re referring to a nine to five job, dress clothes required or else it’s not a real job kind of job. And this is more often said by people who like their jobs, and whose jobs don’t suck. When I was forced to work full time by my company, I didn’t think I was bettering myself. When they refused to move me from the night shift, even though I told them I was getting sick because I was working the night shift, I didn’t feel like I was experiencing any kind of good old rugged individualism. I just felt sick, and taken advantage of. That’s not to say I don’t admire any kind of work; in fact I work very hard at my fiction writing. But that’s not a real job, so therefore, not really working, right? Truth is, I don’t think I’d be happy at any kind of outside job like that; I don’t think I’ll ever learn to get value from a nine to five job. I think it’s sick how our society overvalues some types of work (business careers, lawyers) and devalues other kinds (the arts, kindergarten/elementary teaching) just because they’re not seen as “labor-intensive.” The problem with American society is not that we place too high a value on the work ethic (because you can’t really do that); it’s that we place too high a value on structured, nine to five, business casual work. That’s not the only kind of work there is, but it’s the only kind that seems to matter.
Sam Stone (or anyone else): Why haven’t you addressed my points about unethical companies/robber barons and how that plays into the work ethic?
I’m not just talking about France though, i’m talking about Europe and the chart Kimstu put up showed unemployment lower in some EU countries than the US. And I do not see any real evidence that finding a job is harder in France than the US, alot of people here in the US are having troubles finding jobs too. But with all the regulations in France it may be harder. And it wasn’t just France, countries like the UK have lower unemployment, cheaper college, universal access to healthcare and a higher minimum wage. I would prefer to live in a country with those benefits if I were poor and trying to work my way out.
Your statistic on educaiton don’t make sense either.
This says France has 11 year of compulsory education. Maybe the high immigration level in France is bringing down the average. Suffice it to say if a person wanted to go to college they could, no one is required to quit school at year 7.9 or 11.
And I still think that many european countries are better tahn the US if you are poor. Their minimum wages are higher, their healthcare is accessable and their college is usually cheaper.
And when I was talking about healthcare I meant to describe healthcare as a sort of benefit of living in a European country. IE, i’d rather make $10/hr in a country with universal access than make $13/hr in the US, pay $150/month in premiums and have a high deductible while also having to pay 2k a year more for college.
Not true for Denmark. “what do you do?”, means “where do you work?” On the other hand I’ve heard that Americans spend an average of more than four hours a day in front of the telly(!) – while Europeans spend around three (- ! too). There’s two weeks right there.
What do you mean they forced you? You couldn’t quit? I thought you had abolished slavery in America? Or by force do you mean, you were forces to do what they hired you to? I think it’s a virtue to work to support yourself and your family. Beyond that, it’s a hobby, deserving of no special esteem. A recent survey showed that the great majority of Danes would continue working even if they didn’t need the money, or wasn’t paid anything. Batshit crazy I say. But very many Danes find work to be an essential part of their personality.
Wesley what’s the unemployment like over there? Here it’s about $140 a week cash, rent allowance and other benefits none of which is time limited once you can show that you are trying to get a job.
