America needs to be more like Europe (lazier and less religious, for starters)

Great Debates
121

I didn’t mean all of europe was better than the US at everything, I’m saying if you are poor, working poor or want to work your way out of poverty you are better off in a European country. If you are wealthy you may be better off in the US. Your chart doesn’t address the issue I was getting at. I am not concerned about life expectancy I am concerned about high health insurance premiums and high deductibles on insurance. I think that the lower wages in a country like France will be offset by the savings on healthcare and higher education. Also it would not suprise me if the labor laws are more flexible on average in the EU than the US in regards to helping people work while still attending college or raising children. I have no proof of this though. So making $3/hr less and getting all these benefits is a good trade off IMO. Your belief that employer regulations automatically are a bad thing isn’t true to me either. I do not know the ins and outs of it but I also do not know if the interventions listed here
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/lab_reg&id=OECD
Result in more unemployment, more labor protections or what. Then again when you compare that chart to the unemployment rates in Europe it seems the higher unemployed countries have more government intervention. Still I do not know if the intervention is just a response to high unemployment (like FDR’s new deal) or a cause of it.

And I admitted I was wrong when I said the EU spent more on R&D than the US. It was a typo.

As for ‘freedom of movement’ one of the main gripes against the US healthcare system is that people get their healthcare through their jobs. As a result they cannot quit for fear of losing health insurance. So whatever extra regulations a country like France may have in regards to switching jobs could be offset by the fact that people in the US are chained to their jobs because of health insurance. Both nations may make it hard to quit, just for different reasons.

And your statements about long term unemployment are at odds with the chart Kimstu put up. Some EU countries do have high unemployment, but many do not. And I am not moving to europe, i’m stating that if i’d had a choice I would’ve preferred to be born in a European country, maybe Sweden.

122

Do you think this model holds for very small companies? There are 5 people in my company, president, 2 developers, an art guy and an college intern. We have large clients, brand names you would recognize. With the workload and variety of apps we develop and maintain, it is nearly impossible to have a system of checks and balances. Not to imply that if one of us fell off the face of the earth that the company would tank, but the downtime of hiring a new person with a adequate skill set and them coming up to speed through whatever documentation was around would be brutal.

And reading through the thread, my earlier comment was not aimed at yojimbo, I merely quoted him so that my comments had some context. I’m sure yojimbo’s company needs him very much. :stuck_out_tongue:

123

It’s a complicated situation. Basically I was told after one month working there that I would be allowed to switch to part time dayshift work for health reasons. Whenever I asked about it afterwards, they’d say “maybe next month, maybe in a week,” refusing to give me a straight answer. Meanwhile, other people were getting switched to PT, or getting switched to dayshift, and I was constantly getting left behind. Another reason I needed to work dayshift was because I can’t drive, and the last bus left four hours before my shift started (I live in a small town, was commuting to place out in the middle of nowhere), and it was too hard on my family and boyfriend to have to drive me to work every day of the week. If we would have had a union, I could have filed suit under them, but the company I worked for disallows unions. I considered filing under the ADA, but I don’t have the money for those kind of legal fees. Finally I did quit (well, just didn’t show up one day). I did do what they hired me to do, but they didn’t do what they promised they’d do, and I knew there were positions available that could have accomodated my schedule.

And I find work to be an essential part of my personality. Just not working at Walmart. But working at Walmart is a real job and writing isn’t (no matter how much money I may make off of it eventually), so I guess I’m screwed in the ethics department.

124

I do know a couple of entrepreneurs who have neglected their vacations for a year or two while setting up a company, but it’s the exception rather than the rule. And we do have lots of little successful companies here, too, even with vacations.

125

I think we should remove a bit of the “bias” of the OP title… and change it to:
“Americans should be less workaholic, less greedy and less religious.” :slight_smile:

Funny enough the religious ethic was left aside during the debate… and rightly so I think. The poorest europeans are catholics… not protestants… but still religious “ethics” didn’t do them much good.

I think the american loser vs winner mentality should be mentioned somewhat. Americans are prodded into competing more due to this... earning more makes you look better and buying your more expensive car. While europeans won't look down as much on someone earning less... nor do they care as much about social status symbols of cars and good houses.
126

[QUOTE=clairobscur]

I was rather surprised by that one myself. I’m not actually sure I trust it. The cite says “Average years of schooling of adults is the years of formal schooling received, on average, by adults over age 15. (Data Source: Barro-Lee Data Set www.worldbank.org/html/prdmg/grthweb/ddbarle2.htm)” The link is broken however.

Is it possible that older people are skewing the numbers? How long has the education requirement you described been in force?

127

I don’t think anyone looks down on Stephen King, Michael Crichton, or John Grisham because they spend their time writing fiction, continuity error. Nor does anyone look down on artists like Thomas Kinkade. (Actually, I’ll take that back… “serious” artists deride Kinkade’s simplicity, and “serious” literary critiques sneer at King). But public reaction to them is positive. Why? Because they produce a product that people are willing to oay money to have. I’m sure you work hard at your fiction writing, but your mistake is in holding up “hard work” as though it should be enough.

No. “Hard work,” is not the key. Producing a product or service that people will pay you for is the key. Often, of course, hard work is key to doing that. But hard work is not what people pay for. Results are.

Frankly, the wishful rejection of this idea seems to permeate this thread, “Oh, if only we were like the Europeans, and didn’t insist on work!” “Oh, if only my writing were as valued as an MBA’s business work!” “Oh, if only my interpretive dance could be seen as the serious endeavor it is!”

What these plaintive wails miss is that it’s perfectly possible to become wealthy as an artist: if you’re any good. I’m certain that Gelsey Kirkland is not living in a cardboard box. I know Barishnikov manged to get by. Because they produced a product that people were willing to pay to see.

I think that when you are unable to compete successfully with your neighbors, a certain percentage of people wishes that there were no competition at all. That’s understandable.

And - thank God - it ain’t gonna happen. As always, the SDMB community stands firmly to the left of the real American political scene. There is, here, a welcoming acceptance of this thread’s idea, because here on the SDMD, the leftists specialize in telling each other how correct and wise they are. They are then stunned when the real world rejects their ideas, and convinced that the real world is populated with unprogressive troglydytes.

Doubt this theory? Run the next Democratic Presidential candidate on the theme, “We should be more like Europe - lazier and less religious” - and see how well he or she does.

“Oh, no!” I hear you cry! A majority doesn’t make it TRUE!

Yes, but as long as you’re in THIS country, a majority is necessary to win an office. And winning an office is necessary to making it happen. If that is not your goal, then this entire speculation is simply masturbatory fantasy… and, frankly, I know better fantasies for that purpose.

128

This is perfectly fair. Can you see the difference in this and your “hands down” statement from earlier?

That is the same site I found. Yours also says that the French over 15 on average have recieved only 7.9 years of education. I’m not sure I trust this statistic. It may be skewed by an older population which was educated in different times.

This also is fair.

Right. I understood what you were saying. All I am saying is that there may be more to it than this simple math indicates.

129

I assume you mean this question?

Do you know what a monopoly or “robber baron” is? Here is a wikipedia history. Here is a definition so monopoly. Perhaps you could better describe why you think Walmart is a “robber baron” or a monopoly and we might be able to answer you question.

130

**clairobscur[/]b and Wesley Clark, I found this cite containing a breakdown of the education level attained by age. It seems to indicate that Franc, for one, has a much greater range of education attained accross ages than, for instance, the United States. This “might” account for the “years of education” discrepency I noted earlier.

131

While we’re discussing religiosity, I’d like to know if there is, or if there was, a Protestant Puritanical streak in Switzerland. After all, John Calvin came from there. When I visited Zurich in 1978, I remember seeing restaurants that proudly proclaimed that they were ‘alkolholfrei’. What customer base were such restaurants aimed at? People who for reasons of personal conviction were teetotalers, and didn’t even want to be in a room where alcohol was being consumed? Or were they aimed at recovering alcoholics wishing to avoid the temptation to backslide?

132

I feel like mentioning something that goes back to the original question: Should America be more like Europe? In a more overall sense, not just in an economic sense as has been dominating this thread.

First of all, I want to acknowledge what’s often said here: An anecdote is not data. However, I do have a personal comment to make.

My parents immigrated to the US from Europe in 1958. Since then, they’ve gone back to visit many times – both their native country, as well as general travel through Europe. They love visiting there.

But when I asked whether they’d ever want to live there again, they both said, without even hesitating, “No way!”

Ed

133

I blame soccer. :wink:

134

Hard work by itself was never the key. Working smart is. One person can bust his butt and not get much done. Another can take the same project and polish it off while seeming to make no effort at all. Anyone can work hard, but with no results, or with bad results, whay good is that? Practically every technology we have (from the wheel on) is the result of someone finding a better, easier way to do something. Nobody cares how hard you worked on something, if they don’t want it. What they do care about is “what can it do for me”.

135

But this is exactly my point. Why do we only value (and I should point out that the word “value” in my last post doesn’t mean economic value, but rather something more akin to “estimation”) things which produce money? Why is it that someone’s income is considered a good indicator of their worth as a person (and that’s true, it is)? Why does competition have to enter into it at all; why can’t we just be pleased for the people who choose non-lucrative careers because they make them happy? I don’t care about becoming the next John Grisham; I just want to find a way to make just enough money to survive and also be able to do the thing I love, and not spend twelve hours a day locked in a job I hate. Yet you seem to interpret it as saying that I’m upset that I’m not making a boatload of money. There’s a huge difference between being a bestselling author and living on the street. So why do we look at it as if it’s two extremes: succeeding financially or not succeeding financially?

Maybe the arts are a bad example. What about teaching? Nobody on the planet works harder than teachers, and arguably nobody’s work is as important as theirs. Then why is it that when someone says they want to be a teacher, the first thing everybody says isn’t “it’s so admirable that you want to educate the future generation” but instead “you can’t make any money doing that”? My point is that we don’t care how important a job is in the great scheme of things, we don’t care if someone likes their job and finds it (non-monetarily) worthwhile, we only care about the bottom line. Yeah, I’m fully aware that’s the way it is, I’m not asking anyone to feel bad for me because I chose to go into writing and teaching as a career. I’m just asking why that is the way it is.

136

Walmart’s modus operandi is to go into small towns and buy out or take down all the smaller and independent businesses with rock-bottom prices. Once all retail competition is eliminated, they slowly ratchet up their prices. The people, either faced with going to the only store in town or driving twenty miles to the next small town to patronize their businesses, will give up and shop at Walmart. The smaller businesses can never bounce back, since the Walmart can always drop its prices whenever competition looms, whereas they cannot.

So maybe Walmart isn’t a “true” monopoly, but it’s certainly a lot like one. Have you ever lived in an area where a Walmart is the only place to get certain items in a fifty-mile radius? Feels monopolistic to me.

137

Just for the record, continuity eror, I do not do many of the things you are accusing “everybody” of. I doubt very much if my first reaction to any of your stories would be “It’ll never sell”. I have never once said to the friends of mine who wish to be teachers “You’ll be a financial failure.” I have in fact praised their choice many times. I know several people who chose not to work at more lucrative jobs because the work they love doing allows them to make do. I always honor their choice.

The difference is they do not seem as full of resentment towards those who do make a lot of money.

I assume you have sent your work to all of the major publishers. I assume you have entered into as many writing contests as you can. Honestly, I wish you the best of luck. I have always believed that the secret to happiness is to find something you love doing and then find a way to make it pay. Who cares if you work 80-120 hour weeks if you love your job. :wink:

138

No. Can you tell me how many places existed to get these items before Walmart?

139

Yes, in fact I have. Didn’t feel ‘monopolistic’ to me…we could and did make a trip to ‘the big city’ for things when we wanted too (even transplanted hispanic ‘hicks’ living in the hinterlands of rural Maryland have cars you know), but found the prices at Walmart better and the available goods more varied for our everyday needs. I also call bullshit on the slow price hike thing…I certainly never noticed it and it was the ONLY game in town in my old small town for years.

You got one thing right though…it did drive out many of business several local stores that competed in that market, including a K-Mart that used to be there. However, it did so because it had more things for less money than those local stores…so it ‘stole’ their business the old fashioned way…it was simple a better place to shop. Personally I don’t think this is a problem…certainly not for me as a consummer. When it came in thats where I did 80% of my shopping anyway…which is kind of why those other places went out of business.

Basically, its nothing like a monopoly, they aren’t robber barons, and your other claim is pure BS (or at least totally unsupported by any of those pesky fact things so far anyway)…anything else?

-XT

140

Two anecdotal case studies:

The small town I grew up in (less than 20k people) used to have a vibrant downtown area. Everyone went downtown to shop. When the mall moved in in the late eighties, that kind of put a damper on downtown business, but there were still many things you had to buy downtown, like hardware and groceries. Then K-Mart moved in. Fewer people went downtown, but it wasn’t a mass exodus, since the K-Mart was and still is kind of dingy and isn’t considered a nice place to shop. Then Walmart moved in. Now downtown is a ghost town. Nobody shops there for tools or medicine or office supplies, they all go to the Walmart. I believe that in ten years’ time there will be nowhere for people to shop in town except Walmart and the mall. The only thing that is saving my hometown from being near-monopolized is that the Walmart doesn’t sell food, so the grocery stores stay in business. However, there’s been talk of expanding it into a Super Walmart (which sells food), which I find scary and depressing.

The college town I live in now (which is also the place where my dad grew up, so I know a lot about its history) has around 5k full-time residents. It was always a tiny town, but it used to have a bookstore, a record store, a few clothing shops, two food markets, and a handful of non-chain restaurants. My dad says it used to be a nice little self-contained college town; the townies and students would all do their shopping there. Then the town twenty miles away opened a Super Walmart. College students, who had no connection to the town, did all their shopping at the Walmart. One of the food markets went bust, none of the clothing stores survived, and the restaurants that crowded in around the store drove business away from the town. Now all we have in town is one food market, one general merchandise store (Dollar General), one pharmacy, one gas station, and a few chain restaurants. There’s no clothes shops, no record stores, no bookstores. The town is no longer self-sufficient like it used to be. Walmart has ruined this town.

Well, that’s a good thing. Maybe I’m just bitter because I’ve heard the “you’ll never make any money” thing so many times before. Maybe I’m resentful because I saw my mom ridiculed by her dad (who is a businessman) for choosing to be an elementary school teacher. But I certainly don’t want to paint everyone with the same brush, so I apologize if I was doing that.