That is precisely the source of this discontent. You registered your disapproval of people posting anything political in this thread, but in reality you only disapprove of politicking by people who don’t share your beliefs. If you meant what you said earlier, you wouldn’t approve of anyone using this event as an opportunity to advance a political agenda. But apparently you do, so long as you share that agenda. It’s hypocritical to pretend that you want to respect the decorum of the situation when, in reality, you’re merely looking for an excuse to tell others to shut up.
You have every right to your political views. I have never once expressed otherwise, and I would have liked to believe you were above such shameless lying.
That is the only conclusion I can draw from what you’ve said in this thread. You approve of using three thousand deaths as a political stepping stone - so long as it’s your side using it. But you engage in moralism when others air their political views on the same occasion. That certainly makes you a hypocrite.
Do they teach a different kind of logic in Australia or something?
You have clearly not done so thus far. It would seem illogical to expect you to in the future.
I expressed a view that the debate should be separate from the anniversary. Your posts, on the other hand, are poppered with phrases like “Bush administration”.
I’d still like to see you explain how I’m a hypocrite for saying we shouldn’t get political and then not getting politically active. I really don’t get that one at all.
It’s at the point now where I’m not even pissed at you. It’s becoming almost like a strange sort of puzzle. I’m not a great fan of your opinions, but I do think you’re reasonably smart and know how to debate. But you’re not showing it here.
TLD: That’s black.
Excalibre: No, it’s not white, it’s black.
TLD: I said it was black.
Excalibre: Why are you lying?
TLD: I’m not lying. I said it was black.
Excalibre: You still haven’t explained why you said it was white. You are illogical.
I don’t know what you’re reading, but it’s not my posts. I have not said anything like what you are describing.
I said you were a hypocrite for denouncing politics on this occasion, but failing to acknowledge that the politicking in the thread in question was started by the OP. This is not a complex concept. I’m not sure why you are unable to understand it, or why you keep claiming I’m telling you to “get politically active”. The wording in one post was ambiguous - if you’re completely unable to use context to attempt to understand a piece of writing - but after I explained what I meant you continue to claim that I’m attempting to push you into being politically active (or something like that - your thoughts appear to be rather muddled, and I’m having a hard time figuring out what you’re claiming I’ve said.)
I think, at this point, that it’s simply a strawman you’re building. I’m not encouraging you to do anything “political” beyond what you’ve already done in this thread - that is, exclaiming your disapproval of using this anniversary as a political occasion. I simply think that, if you’re not actually the utter hypocrite you’ve made yourself look like so far, then you’d denounce anyone for politicizing this event. If it’s disrespectful for those of us who oppose the war to bring it up on the anniversary of 9/11, it’s certainly disrespectful for people like chowder and Starving Artist and the president to use the anniversary as an opportunity for pushing their political agendas.
You have since stated that you think chowder was out of line for starting the thread. It hardly matches what you said earlier:
Hooray! I have made several overtures to you where I have conceded points. Heck, I even said you were “mostly right” (or words to that effect) at one point. Maybe that doesn’t feed the flame wars you love so much, but hey, you’ve given an inch now, and I suppose that’s something.
Should I post it in bold? Yes, I think Chowder was in the wrong. Yes, he introduced politics to the thread. It doesn’t mean you or I have to.
And I am saying neither side should use the event to further their own political ends. Saying there should be no politics involved isn’t of itself a political act. Chowder’s rant was. Your rants were. I don’t think I’ve posted a single pro-Bush, pro-war thing in this thread.
FTR, I think the Bush administration’s handling of events these last few years has been a monstrous clusterfuck. I remain, though, of the firm opinion that military force is a legitimate option under the circumstances. It could well have been done much, much better though.
Oh dammit, I’ve gone and posted something political. Anyway, I have nothing to hide from you, and hopefully you will know where I stand on that issue, which may be important to you as you keep coming back to it. For mine though, it’s of no importance at all in relation to the anniversary.
Ahh. So you want to rehash some fight from long ago, and that’s what your feigned puzzlement is about. Suddenly things are becoming much clearer.
But it’s curious that, instead of posting to reprimand chowder, you came in here to express support for him by suggesting that he probably didn’t mean what it sounded like, and further by lambasting those who were disagreeing with chowder.
It’s still utterly inexplicable to me why, since you have such a problem with what chowder posted, you waited until someone argued with him to direct your ire at them! Because, if I was upset about the way this event has been turned into a political matter (and I was, from the day it happened. I was getting nauseated at the politicization of 9/11 before it was cool) I would probably have directed my denouncement at the OP of the thread I was getting upset about. Of course, I’ve long since given up hope that people might not use this event as a stepping stone for their political agendas - if I argued with everyone who used 9/11 to score cheap political points, I’d have a hundred thousand posts here and my vocal cords would have fallen out from yelling at people who do it in real life.
My posts in this thread, prior to your attempts at restarting whatever old argument it is you wanted to restart, were only to condemn people for another bit of disgusting politicking - I was arguing with the claims by chowder and others that disagreeing with the administration represents hatred of the United States. I hardly think that’s advancing much of a political agenda, so much as attempting (futilly, no doubt, but I’m a sucker for a lost cause) to encourage people to at very least argue fairly.
I reject the notion that disagreeing with this war is unpatriotic, and I certainly reject the idea that caring about the victims of 9/11 means supporting a totally different war. Apparently you consider this a political view. It says something very said about politics today that such a thing is treated as one more political view rather than a self-evident truth.
If you really think that using this occasion for political purposes is wrong, then have the minimal bit of integrity it takes to call out those who share your politics when they do it. There’s something to be said for keeping your own house in order. Try to have enough honor not to wait until you’re called on it to do so next time.
Yes, I do recall having a flame war with you one or two years ago. No it’s not a big deal, and no, I honestly can’t remember what it was about off the top of my head. I also recall having posted civil and (hopefully) informative replies to you on subsequent occasions. I don’t bear grudges inb that wayt, so please don’t flatter yourself. If you post a question in GQ tomorrow, and I happen to know the answer, I’ll tell you.
I’ve already called Chowder out. Twice. Or is it three times? What more do you want?
[not arguing]I have a problem with “my/your side of politics” as a label, as it is far too general. I think I’m mildly right of centre, but there are so many specific exceptions to that that I think it make the label almost meaningless. I don’t see Chowder as any sort of obvious political soul mate of mine.[/not arguing]
THIS IS MY MOST DEFINITE FINAL POSTING IN THIS THREAD. I REPEAT MY OP WITH SLIGHTLY ALTERED WORDING, MAKE OF IT WHAT YOU WILL
Shortly after 9/11, a day that will go down in history as a day of infamy, I have this to say.
America and her allies will emerge victorious from this war on terror because they are of sterner stuff than the terrorists can possibly imagine.
The rich red blood that courses through our veins is an amalgam of many races, intermingled over the years to create a stronger and yet peace loving collection of nations.
Yes there will be casualties, American and Allied servicemen and women will fall just as they have done in all the wars they have fought in, but remember that for every Allied serviceman that falls, many more of the enemy will follow suit.
We shall have faith in what we believe is right, we shall give no ground or concession and nor shall we bend our knee to those who seek to destroy our way of life.
This war may take some time before the guns fall silent and the killing ends but I truly believe the last shot heard will be that from an Allied weapon.
The terrorists will not win, ** WE SHALL PREVAIL**
Where’s this “War On Terror” you speak of? And those “who seek to destroy our (your) way of life”? 'cause, for all I know, YOU ARE THE ONES who’ve destroyed a WHOLE NATION already for no apparent rational reason…
9/11 = 2,819 killed
Why…hmmm…errr…all this time I thought you were the one :eek:
On a serios note, since I was a kid, I used to idolize your country. Went to school there, married there, both my kid and ex-wife are Americans, lived there for over 15 years.
I no longer understand what your country stands for – but I do know it’s not the things that made me love it in the first place.
Ah yes, we’ve had the nationalism that ‘my country is great’, now we get the uglier side of the coin from you, ‘your country is crap’.
I love my country. But as long as people with your jingoistic blinders are in it, I can hardly love it unconditionally. Oh whoops, I’ve criticised the state of Britain, must I leave now? :mad:
Originally Posted by chowder
Thanks to John C o M and also to Starving Artist together with the few that saw my post in the light it was intended.
(bolding mine)
Clearly, one can tell by your posts that you are a telepath, fully capable of reading other’s minds and instantly determining their motivation. But one thing puzzles me, Excalibre:
When was I baptized into the Republican Party? I don’t remember that. The only heavy drinking I’ve done recently was a bout with moonshine whiskey and BBQ ribs in Tuskegee on Labor Day. This seems an unlikely place for such a conversion to have taken place, since Macon County voted 93% Democrat last election.
But if you say it happened, I guess there’s no disputing your mental abilities. A few things I must know, now that I’m a Born Again Pubbie: Will I get a membership card? Perhaps some stock in Haliburton?
And most importantly, in the unlikely event that the Demmies nominate an acceptable candidate next time, will I be able to vote for the Demmie, or am I bound to vote Pubbie?
Breathlessly awaiting this information from you, oh Enlightened One.
I simply read his words, which advanced a political argument about the “War on Terror”. Perhaps you know a better way to determine what someone thinks than trusting their words?
I simply have no idea what you’re talking about. But one thing is clear: the fact that you see no problem with seizing upon this anniversary to advance your politics shows something about you. I wonder about the fate of a society that is as shameless as this one - there is something deeply disturbing to me about people’s willingness to turn a tragedy like this into nothing more than a partisan political opportunity.
The muddled thinking expressed in this post shows something else about you.
Yeah, all them damn Iraqis are terrorists.
Just look at them dresses they wear.
(And you tried to insult the intelligence of the Irish.
There aren’t :rolleyes: enough for this level of willful ignorance and complete stupidity.)
Have a nice life and don’t let the door hit you on the way out.
