Add delusional to disingenuous, lying pigfuck. Talk about a giant ego!
HA!
Any English-language Arab papers? Just curious.
I’ll grant the Qur’an does seem to attack Jews and Christians specifically - but then again, what other religions were they in contact with while Muhammad was alive? - but the New Testament also has quite a bit of venom for disbelievers, and the Old Testament is full of examples of God not being as merciful as some claim him to be. Especially toward idolators. They’re all pretty much the same.
Jews have gotten pissed on for millennia primarily because they’ve never been the religion of state anywhere except Israel. Look how badly the early Christians got nailed in the Roman Empire before Constantine adopted the faith. And Western Europeans obviously weren’t strangers to the idea mass execution of Jews even as far back as a thousand years ago. Anti-Semitism isn’t the exclusive provenance of either Christianity or Islam; neither is it the exclusive provenance of religion at all - the obvious example of Stalin comes to mind. Anti-Semitism doesn’t grow naturally in the human mind, same as racism or homophobia. It has to be taught and fostered. And even then it doesn’t take hold of all minds equally; there are people - even Arabs - who consciously reject anti-Semitism. Therefore it is an outright distortion of the reasons behind any Arab violence - whether genuine resistance or terrorism - to say that anti-Semitism lies at its base. Anger? Yes. Hatred, be it rational or irrational? Yes. Anti-Semitism? I’d say only if they say something undeniably anti-Semitic, like “We killed Nick Berg because he is a filthy Jew”. That, or anything similar, doesn’t seem to have appeared in the statements published in any of the stories around Berg’s murder, so it’s a tenuous claim at best to assert that Berg’s faith had anything to do with it.
Aw, yer boyfriend dresses you funny.
We’ve already had the displeasure of meeting, and believe me, it went nothing like your scenario, nor could it in a gazillion centuries.
Actually, it doesn’t, but that’s a whole 'nother thread.
Probably for the same reason that beatings are not described as “aggravated assault,” and deaths are not described as “murder.” While it is highly probable that a soldier having sex with a female prisoner (on videotape, if the reports you keep discounting are accurate) is an act of rape, the report offers descriptions of incidents, not legal conclusions about the individual acts.
Fuck. I just saw the Berg video. Fuck. I wasn’t going to watch it. I knew what happens in the video and I didn’t want to watch it. I didn’t want the images to be ingrained in my mind. Fuck. I figured that I would see the pictures eventually and decided to watch it.
The screams and cries are now replaying in my mind. Fuck. The gurgles. The cries. Fuck.
Fuckin’ humans.
Indulge me then, and answer these questions.
When you posted: “What we’ve seen so far can be dismissed as “pranks” (Not that they are pranks, or are in any way acceptable, they are uncatagoricly not, but I can see the soldiers involved thinking of them that way)” did you know about the allegations of rape, torture, and beatings?
When you posted: “You have proof that our prison guards “raped, sodomized, sexually abused, emotionally tortured and yes, murdered” anyone? If so, I’d like to see it, or I’ll expect a retraction.”, did you know the basis for the allegations of rape torture and beatings?
If you didn’t: Why didn’t you just say so earlier and why did you so vehemently attack wring when she provided cites?
If you did: How in God’s name could you even think to refer to rape, torture, and beatings as dismissible as “pranks” even by the people who were involved? And if you did, why did you ask for a cite to things you already knew, without indicating for one second that you knew about them.
FWIW, here’s what I think. I think you didn’t know about the more horrendous allegations of abuse, and those two posts were only made with the original photographs that have been released in mind. Then, for whatever reason, you got very defensive when provided the information and have, since then, played a very long, tedious, vicious game of denial, repharasing, and insulting. Rather than admit you did not know about, or did not know about the basis for, the allegations, you used tortured logic, mudslinging, and obfuscation to avoid having to deal with it. However, perhaps you did know about it, and completely ignored it when offering the “prank” dismissal and then asking for a cite to something you already knew. I’d just like a clear statement from you, so I can quit having to be so fucking nitpicky.
Say, Wierddave, Shayna, do you guys know where I can find a thread discussing that poor schmuck that got his head chopped off the other day? I’m sure there was one around here somewhere.
I took a class about Islamic culture in college, and I seem to remember that the books of ahadith are more important to Islamic culture than even the Qur’an. The ahadith are, as you pointed out, reports of the prophet’s doings by people close to him and his successors. They give advice on how to go about daily life and be good muslims. The Qur’an is essentially just a ‘correction’ of things that are ‘incorrect’ in the bible, according to God (via the Prophet), so it’s less important to one’s daily life, but of more theological value. In any event, ahadith by A’ishah are the most authoritative, i’m not sure where Sahih Bukhari falls in the authoritative ladder, but i’m certain i’ve heard the name before.
For a comparison of scope, the Old Testament was written down well over 600 years after any of the events contained in it were supposed to have taken place, because it was an oral tradition for many years. I believe the same is true of the hadith, though i’d be more inclined to believe that the hadith made it from oral to written tradition with less obscuration than the old testament did, just on the basis of their time scales.
Not really disagreeing with anything you said in particular, just pointing out that the views of islam are the hadith for the most part. I also don’t think that there’s anything particularly anti-semitic about Islam in it’s basic form, especially since Judaism is a lot closer to Islam in its belief structure than Christianity is. I still haven’t gone back to read the particular piece you referred to though.
Silly me, one click of the post i was replying to would have answered my question.
I’m with you. I wasn’t going to watch, but…
I really regret doing so. I didn’t play the sound. If I did, I’d probably still be curled up in fetal position, wide eyed, sucking my thumb, and babbling incoherently.
Alright Hamlet, I will go through this one more time. When this story broke in the US, I was a horrified as anyone. The initial reports and photos showed abuse and torture of Iraqis, but nothing I would term life threatening. We’ll call these abuses the “prank” abuses in the spirit of this thread. Over the past week or so, I have also heard a whole litany of stories about other abuses, particularly after Rumsfeld testified that “There are other photos – many other photos – that depict incidents of physical violence towards prisoners, acts that can only be described as blatantly sadistic, cruel and inhuman, and I am advised there also are videos of these actions.” Over the weekend a radio station here broadcast that hundreds of bodies of Iraqis murdered by US Soldiers had been found at the prison. I read a webblog whose author claimed that the female detainees were regularly used by American soldiers for R and R. I heard rape, I heard murder, I heard sodomy, beastiality and child porn. I heard a lot of shit and not a shred of evidence behind any of it, in short I saw a typical liberal feeding frenzy that overshadowed the atrocities themselves with attempting to use the fact of their existance for political gain. In waltzes Shayna with her “people who we raped, sodomized, sexually abused, emotionally tortured and yes, murdered”. I asked a very simple question, quoted here in it’s entirity:
“You have proof that our prison guards “raped, sodomized, sexually abused, emotionally tortured and yes, murdered” anyone? If so, I’d like to see it, or I’ll expect a retraction.” and immediately followed it with “I’ll give you “emotionally tortured”, but that’s it. Show me proof of the rest.” Notice I said not one rude or insulting thing, I just asked for a cite. Shayna responded with gratuitous personal insults and ignighted the shitstorm that is this thread. Hey, if she wants to trade insults instead of discussing facts, that’s fine with me. ( Go on Shayna, call me a pigfucker again. It gets cleverer the more you say it )
Now, I hold the same position now that I held at the beginning of this. These are allegations. They have to be proven. Cites to the same Rumsfeld quotes saying that there are inhumane videos and photos we haven’t seen aren’t proof of any specific charge. Shayna’s hysteria, Minty and wring’s bombast and World Eaters’ attempt to hijack the thread notwithstanding, none was supplied until Mtgman posted a link to documents that seem to substantiate the rape charge. Now I am going to continue to watch and see what else comes out. I’ll allow that rape can come off of the list, that seems to have been proven, at least there is some evidence beyond hearsay and speculation. So, to answer your question: At the time I asked for proof, I had seen none reguarding the more serious charges. “Proof” of rape, or at least documentation of what is most likely a rape, has been supplied, and you can add that to your list of “prank” actions that US soldiers and contractors have been shown to commit. I’m still waiting for proof of murder and the rest. Until that is produced, they remain allegations.
Oh give us a break and lose the injured martyr act, dave. ‘Offer proof or I’ll expect a retraction’ is hardly a “polite” way to ask for a cite. It’s arrogant and antagonistic – akin to “put up or shut up.” Quit pretending that you meant it with any other undertone than that – like I said, I’m not stupid. It was especially disingenuous since you have repeatedly admitted that you knew Exactly What I Was Talking About. Why don’t you just shut the fuck up now? You look more idiotic with every post you make with all your twisted justifications, backpeddaling and whining. Grow up.
Shayna, I am going to be serious here for a minute, years ago you were a friend. Seek help. Soon. I meant no undertones, I was implying nothing. I was simply asking for a cite. Your constant paranoia is scary. Please, seek some professional help.
It’s healthy to note that despite what what some may have said and what you may have heard, what you speak of as “a typical liberal feeding frenzy… for political gain” isn’t all that different from a a typical conservative feeding frenzy for political gain.
The baser nature of man is not excised, exorcised or otherwise nullified by being a conservative.
We’s Them.
googoog’joob
That is HILARIOUS, especially coming from you! But I’ll tell you what, I’ll be serious right back at you. You were once a friend… there’s a reason you’re not anymore. Seek help, perhaps you’ll figure it out.
(re: asking for the source of the Lenin Quote in the sig. line of Brutus
The Oxford Dic. of Quotes cites it reliably from 1936.
Seeing as how Lenin *died in 1924, I’m really curious as to how he managed to get enough air into his formaldehyde-laden lungs for one last bon mot.
Now I got this picture of Miracle Max looking Lenin over. “He’s only mostly dead!”
If that’s a live man…why no struggling?
Where’s the blood?