american beheaded in Iraq, video

[Blonde]

@wring

do you really want to claim that Rumsfeld is lying?

Noooooo! It can’t be!

[gobear]

again, where have I done this? I don’t think we need to wait until the end result of lenghty tirals to admit that bad shit went on is all. apparently dave and you do

You are a liar, and a stupid one to boot, to say that when you quote in the very next sentence where I said the exact opposite!

So, when I said it was a reprehenisible act, I was really saying “god is great”… you fuck. talk about putting words into some one’s mouth

No, you dumb bitch, the killers said it. “Allahu akbar” means “God is great” in Arabic.

I’m sure you find it reprehensible. Where we differ is that I believe that this act will be met with approval in the Arab street as suitable revenge for American atrocities. You think that Arabs will be as shocked and horrifed as we are. Events will show who is right.

[Weirddave]

@wring

I posted links to news sources where the folks you’re defending admit that there’s evidence. It hasn’t been released to the public.

if you’re claiming it didn’t happen, there’s no evidence, you’re wrong about there’s no evidence, other folks who have actually seen video tapes, and admit it, have said ‘yea, there’s evidence’. if you insist we cannot admit that bad shit was done before there’s an actual trial, then I will gladly look back on your posting history and see if you’ve been consistent on that point, that we can never admit that anything has ever happened until there is a trial with a verdict. I doubt that you’ll like the results.

I posted about it on page one. I posted links on page two. Again, the Pentegon has not released the other photos, tapes. Rumsfeld has admitted that they exist. do you really want to claim that Rumsfeld is lying?

Look, I am going to try and be as clear as I can here, because I really do think we are equally outraged here. From your first link:

In his report on the abuse, Taguba concluded that U.S. military police in Iraq inflicted “sadistic, blatant and wanton criminal abuse” on prisoners in their custody numerous times.

Standing people naked on boxes with wires running to their body and telling them they were electrified, stripping prisoners and humiliating them in front of women, forcing them to wear dog collars while naked or to form naked pyramids…all of these things meet my definition of “sadistic, blatant and wanton criminal abuse”. From your second article:

Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld…warned lawmakers on Capitol Hill that graphic videos and more pictures of the mistreatment are likely to surface.

“There are other photos – many other photos – that depict incidents of physical violence towards prisoners, acts that can only be described as blatantly sadistic, cruel and inhuman,” Rumsfeld told the Senate Armed Services Committee. “And I am advised there also are videos of these actions.”

Again, what I detailed above fits that definition.

NOWHERE HAVE I EVER SAID THAT THE ABOVE ACTIONS WERE NOT DESPICABLE, REPUGNANT AND VILE. THEY ARE AND DESERVE THE FULL PUNISHMENT OF LAW.

What I object to is people are throwing around allegations of rape, child porn, sodomy and murder as if these have already been proven. They have not. Maybe when the further photos and videos are released, they will be. If they are, I will condem them with equal ferver. The second article did mention that they were investigating claims of sodomy, so that one may be proven out as well. I refuse to join a lynch mob over things that have not been proven, however, what we have proof of is awful enough.

Is that clear enough?

[Shayna]

gobear, you need to follow the timeline and flow of conversation. It went like this:

Spoofe makes some dumbass remark about comparing us merely putting guys in hoods to Iraqis raping and murdering a woman on her wedding day.

I inquired as to whether he really is trying to claim that all we did was put men in hoods, when what we’ve really done is rape, sodomize, sexually torture and murder them.

Stupiddave then whizzes in demanding proof of the allegation of rape, sodomoy, sexual torture and murder.

A Whole Buncha People point out the news that’s been DOMINATING THE HEADLINES for days now, which includes the testimony of not only the victims themselves, but people in our own adminstration who’ve seen more photographic and video evidence than we have, and I inquire what fucking planet he’s been living on to have managed to miss this.

It degenerates from there, with Stupiddave backpeddaling and flailing and obfuscating the issue with completely irrelevant lies and then trying to change the subject.

I’m really glad to know, though, that it’s so important to him that evidence be presented and trials take place before he’s willing to condemn to death, people who are accused of torturing other human beings, with only the testimony of the victims to go on and no photographic evidence of the heinous crimes they’re accused of. I was almost worried there that he was a barbaric pig. Whew!

[BonoVox]

Damn, here I thought this was the thread about the beheading.

[Weirddave]

@Shayna

gobear, you need to follow the timeline and flow of conversation. It went like this:

Spoofe makes some dumbass remark about comparing us merely putting guys in hoods to Iraqis raping and murdering a woman on her wedding day.

I inquired as to whether he really is trying to claim that all we did was put men in hoods, when what we’ve really done is rape, sodomize, sexually torture and murder them.

Stupiddave then whizzes in demanding proof of the allegation of rape, sodomoy, sexual torture and murder.

A Whole Buncha People point out the news that’s been DOMINATING THE HEADLINES for days now, which includes the testimony of not only the victims themselves, but people in our own adminstration who’ve seen more photographic and video evidence than we have, and I inquire what fucking planet he’s been living on to have managed to miss this.

It degenerates from there, with Stupiddave backpeddaling and flailing and obfuscating the issue with completely irrelevant lies and then trying to change the subject.

I’m really glad to know, though, that it’s so important to him that evidence be presented and trials take place before he’s willing to condemn to death, people who are accused of torturing other human beings, with only the testimony of the victims to go on and no photographic evidence of the heinous crimes they’re accused of. I was almost worried there that he was a barbaric pig. Whew!

You know, you’re the only person, even here, that I’ve seen who believes that Quday and Usay are poor marters for the cause of Iraq. As for death, if it’s a part of the judicial system, and these soldiers are sentenced to it, so be it. The Hussein sons were outside of any legal process, they were the legal process in Iraq. When they refused to surrened to submit to legal prosecution and fired upon the soldiers attempting to arrest them, well, they got what they deserved. A bank robber who fires on police and is killed in return gets what he deserves. The soldiers in question, however, are subject to a legal process, and right now they are going through it.

I have never backpeddled once in this thread, but tell me Shayna, did you spend the last 2 hours looking for quotes of mine that you could use out of context? You could have just asked, y’know, I would have pointed you in the right direction. I’m sure you can twist about anything I’ve posted to meet your adjenda.

[Shayna]

@Weirddave

You know, you’re the only person, even here, that I’ve seen who believes that Quday and Usay are poor marters for the cause of Iraq.

I did NOT say that, nor did I imply that. I demand that you STOP MISREPRESENTING ME (as you’ve done in 2 posts in this thread now), as it’s against board policy, and retract immediately!

Yeah, right, like you’re capable of doing anything honorable. I’d better be careful or I might just hurt myself laughing.

[Muad_Dib]

I just saw the video in the SA forums.

The man screamed terribly.

[rjung]

@5 time champ

Well, there’s no evidence that anyone has been run through a plastic shredder yet, is there?

Of course not, since Saddam’s human-prisoner-shred-fest stories turn out to be false. Can’t produce evidence for something that’s never happened…

[Liberal]

I’m not sure that Brendan O’Neill’s opinion that “the evidence is far from compelling” is a very thorough refutation.

[Hamlet]

@Weirddave

I have never backpeddled once in this thread, but tell me Shayna, did you spend the last 2 hours looking for quotes of mine that you could use out of context? You could have just asked, y’know, I would have pointed you in the right direction. I’m sure you can twist about anything I’ve posted to meet your adjenda.

@Weirddave

What we’ve seen so far can be dismissed as “pranks” (Not that they are pranks, or are in any way acceptable, they are uncatagoricly not, but I can see the soldiers involved thinking of them that way), but the military IS doing an excellent job of prosecuting those responsible so far, I doubt many soldiers will be inclined to try that kind of shit again.

@Weirddave

You have proof that our prison guards “raped, sodomized, sexually abused, emotionally tortured and yes, murdered” anyone? If so, I’d like to see it, or I’ll expect a retraction.

@Weirddave

I’ll give you “emotionally tortured”, but that’s it. Show me proof of the rest.

Please explain the context of these quotes of yours Weirddave. Because right now to me I appears you’re calling what happened to Iraq prisoners to be nothing more than “pranks”. Then you’re speaking out of more apparent ignorance by demanding proof of what had been reported in the media for the last three days. Then you backpeddle. Then, when a poster, any poster, gives you the cites you demanded, rather than debate them, you dismiss them and begin with the insults.

So, I’d be a bit interested in what I’m taking out of context. I’d hate to think my poor impression of you is based on misinformation.

[Desmostylus]

@Libertarian

I’m not sure that Brendan O’Neill’s opinion that “the evidence is far from compelling” is a very thorough refutation.

You are quite correct. Brandan O’Neill’s mere opinion would not be a very thorough refutation. I imagine that’s why Brendan went to the trouble of actually researching his story, and presenting his results.

Since this is the very issue that caused you to throw your support into the war camp, I’m surprised that you aren’t interested in looking for some sort of confirmation that the story was actually true. You know, as opposed to all the other bullshit that was presented as grounds for war that turned out to be completely fucking fabricated by a bunch of fucking assholes.

[Olentzero]

@sleeping

He was Jewish.

Thanks, sleeping.

[minty_green]

Gosh, where have I seen this before?
[ul]
[li]Raise the burden of proof e.g., by demanding evidence of rape, sodomy, and murder. [/li][li]As the evidence demanded is provided by others, raise the burden of proof even higher, e.g., by insisting on videotape of rape and murder. Repeat as many times as necessary.[/li][li]Insist that the available evidence is woefully inadequate to reach any conclusions.[/li][li]Insist that anyone who reaches a conclusion on the basis of the available evidence is dishonest, a bad person, motivated solely by liberal hatred of all things that are good and true.[/li][/ul]Where is Scylla these days, anyway?

[gobear]

@Olentzero

Thanks, sleeping.

So my speculation fueled by the name wasn’t as crazy as you thought, huh?

[Desmostylus]

@minty green

Where is Scylla these days, anyway?

Scylla’s wife eventually said “enough is enough”, and has taken him under control.

[yojimbo]

Really. That made me laugh out loud and now some people I work with are looking at me funny.

[World_Eater]

@Desmostylus

Scylla’s wife eventually said “enough is enough”, and has taken him under control.

I know it’s wrong to laugh, but that was fucking hysterical.

[Hamlet]

@minty green

Gosh, where have I seen this before?
[ul]
[li]Raise the burden of proof e.g., by demanding evidence of rape, sodomy, and murder. [/li][li]As the evidence demanded is provided by others, raise the burden of proof even higher, e.g., by insisting on videotape of rape and murder. Repeat as many times as necessary.[/li][li]Insist that the available evidence is woefully inadequate to reach any conclusions.[/li][li]Insist that anyone who reaches a conclusion on the basis of the available evidence is dishonest, a bad person, motivated solely by liberal hatred of all things that are good and true.[/li][/ul]Where is Scylla these days, anyway?

Or any defense attorney?
[sub]Oh, you know I’m just kidding. Kinda[/sub]

[minty_green]

Weirddave, so far as I know, has not been retained to defend a client. And even if he were so retained, you know as well as I that the rhetorical strategy described above is the last refuge of a lawyer who’s got no case.