Well, the implication you seem to be making, and which many people elsewhere are making, is that this event presents us with something that should make us see the U.S. scandal in a new and different light: i.e. that the subjects are relevant to illuminating insights about each other. And my point, and the arguments to that effect, were that I just don’t see how or why.
Everything about this recent murder we knew beforehand: that Al Qaeda would decapitate an American and publicize it for their own purposes and exploit what they can exploit. If we knew that before, and had whatever reactions to the US scandal we had, why should this event change things?
No, American military personnel have just beaten live Iraqi prisoners until they’ve died, presumably from internal hemorrhaging. That’s certainly not the same thing as slicing a live Iraqi’s throat. Completely different actions, indubitably.
What, precisely, is your point?
This screaming about how horrible these people are is ridiculous. Yes, Al Qaeda et al are very bad people. That’s why you shouldn’t provoke a whole bunch more people into joining them.
This incident makes me sympathize with Saddam Hussein. I know now why he felt the need to rule Iraq with an iron fist.
How do you think Saddam Hussein would respond if terrorists killed one of his workers? He’d not only kill the terrorists, but he’d kill their friends and family as well. He’d get revenge ten times over. It may not be the moral way to control terrorism, but it’d be effective.
Pull out of Iraq. These people aren’t worth fighting for. We’d need to be brutal thugs to stop these brutal thugs. :mad:
Of course it is horrifying, of course it is not justified, of course such things should have exactly zero effect on how the U.S. treats POWs, and you’d better bloody hell believe people are going to care about it!
** Yes and OBL calls America the great Satan (unless we are helping Al Qaeda defeat the Soviet Union, in which case, we are called allies). That makes OBL someone who would sell his soul to the devil if it served his purposes. OBL is a product of a culture that thrives within a feudal state. This will lead to nothing good.
I just saw the complete Video… VERY NASTY. SICK shit. I don’t recommend seeing it at all. These guys who cut the kid are total pigs… sure makes changing the area hard to envision.
This will only make the more militant on both sides feel justified in escalating violence… and the few americans who think torturing is fine even more justified.
I saw the video. You know, you don’t really want to see this sh*t, but it’s there, and the itch doesn’t go away. It is horrible–it is not so much the gore (the Pearl video is worse), but the fact of what is going on.
I find the crazy-Muslim death aesthetic to be just as scary as that of the Nazis. It is an infection of evil. It will be rooted out eventually–but something similar will takes its place. Such is the nature of evil.
The killers certainly don’t see the contradictions in their actions. Some points to consider:
They don’t have the guts to show their faces. What are they trying to hide? Who from? In a real execution, all the people responsible are known. I am anti-death penalty in any case, but what these people committed is just gutless murder.
They don’t have the guts to tell Berg what they’re going to do. In a real execution, the condemned knows what’s coming. Pearl and Berg would not have smiled for the camera had they known they were to be killed. In reality, the killers are the biggest pussies imaginable–tying a man down and cutting him on the sly.
You want to compare this atrocity to what the US did in Abu G? Very well. There is a big difference.
The Al-Q killings serve as a very clear window to their worldview. These are people completely infected with a love of death. What you see is what you get. People say that Al-Q was stupid to do this, but an important point is being missed: this subset of the ME/Muslim culture wants to suffer, it longs for the bombs to fall down on its on head. The more it suffers, the more it can feel justified in slitting innocent throats and suicide bombing. This is its purpose. This is what happens when evil infects you. Hitler was the same way, the Japanese when they bombed Pearl Harbor were this way. Victory is not the purpose.
The scumbag soldiers at Abu-G are different form of evil. It is noteworthy that these people did not shrink from photographing their deeds and sending them out to friends and loved ones. Clueless f*cks, utterly stupid. Here was stupidity in action. Unlike Al-Q, they are not completely infected with evil. They want victory. Evil is exploiting their lack of discipline and stupidity to do what damage it can.
The Americans will later regret what they did and wonder how it even happened. Al-Q will have no regrets. The Americans think of themselves as basically decent and will be curious as to how evil possessed them for the period. At the end of the day, Al-Q, I think, knows that it is evil. Just as the Nazis did.
Evil is like a negative charge on Reality that is always seeking a ground. We are to some degree both conductors and resistors. Evil found a ground at Abu-G. Al-Q is a knowing and willing 10,000 V power line.
You’re acting like the terrorists that beheaded this guy are Iraqi. The one person that we know was involved, Abu Musab Zarqawi, is Jordanian. I’m sick of people implying or flat out saying that Iraqis are responsible for this murder. There is no public evidence at all that any Iraqis were involved with this murder, and I would be very surprised if more Iraqis than non-Iraqis were involved.
Well, I suppose we could discuss your lack of reading comprehension skills, but since they are so obvious, you are right…whats to discuss?
Move along then Knorf…nothing to see here.
The fact that these murderers summarily executed a US civilian and taped it for propaganda purpose, does not excuse in any way what our military personnel did to prisoners under their supervision. Both were crimes (though not equal…I think what AQ did was much more horrific, and a much greater crime, though that may be my US prejudice showing through). The difference, in my eyes at least, is that they WERE crimes to us, they will be investigate, the information about them is widely available throughout the world, and the people that committed them will be punished…and hopefully changes will be made to minimize the chance of something like this happening again (you can never do away with such things completely IMO, people being who and what they are). But the fact remains that neither act was excusable.
I fail to see how this is a ‘cop out’ on my part, as this has been my stance from the begininning.
While making no excuses for the cowardly bastards, they apparently aren’t so stupid as to doubt that if they showed their faces every GI in the world, not just Iraq, would have a digital photo of them.
I don’t know if you are just using racial epithets for dark skinned people or are misspelling Shi’ite, but it was reportedly an Al Quaeda affiliated group that did this. Enemies of Shi’ites. As for barbaric sub-humans, we have plenty of those as evident in the flippant demands of genocide, torture, and humiliation of all Muslims since 9/11. And its resurgence since the beheading of one individual. Not too mention many excusing of the tortures and murders that US and British forces have committed in Iraq where the Coalition has killed more innocent civillians than Al Quaeda in NY, PA, and DC on 9/11 prior to and since the beheading.
While reading your post and its absurd assertions, I came to think about this: You really lusted for seing this horror.
I find the crazy war easthetic of the USA in particlar much more scary
then anything AQ does
because AQ is not a nation, but people following a lunatical ideology
then the Nazis
not only because we are supposed to be past the Empire Periods and their imperialistic warfare but even more because of the nature of this contemporan US Empire and its warfare, both in ideology and practice.
I don’t think they want to look for anything else then the effect they intend to produce.
Get real. This was not an execution, this was an AQ propaganda stunt.
So you would have liked it more watching the victim get scared and struggling while they went on with murdering him.
OK. Everyone is entitled to have a hobby but I find yours a little bit worrying.
Yes there is.
AQ is not a nation. The USA is.
AQ never said the were “defending democracy” and “liberating Iraqis” and “ending the period of torture chambers in Iraq”. The USA does. (Let’s leave out of this discussion all what the USA supposedly invaded Iraq for in the first place.)
AQ never said they don’t intend to kill civilians. They just kill whoever suits their idea.
The USA claims they don’t “intentionally” kill civilians. This is the biggest joke I have heard from the Bush Maffia (to keep it to this administration) be it alone because of the fact that when you invade a sovereign nation you surrely have the intend to kill civilians who happen to get in the way of your cosy bombs or bullets or rockets. Even leaving the thousands of Iraqis killed that way out of the picture, I think you overlook the fact that there seems to be some investigations going on about outright murdering civilians by the US army.
I doubt that anyone has a clear view on the mindset of people claiming to be member of that so called organisation, which is in fact not an organisation with a central command (there is some evidence underscoring the theory that in the past there existed such an organisation that had indeed a form of central command) but that has managed to inspire easy to manipulate young people all over the globe. Who all claim now they are “Al Qaeda” militants thanks to the idiotical fanaticism of the USA to scream “Al Qaeda” whenever there is some explosion somewhere, long before there has been done any research on what was going on.
They were not “stupid” to do this in within the frame of their own ideology (if you can name lunaticism an ideology).
Really… God, I am such a failior as ME/Muslim for I have no clue about that “subset” you so intelligently expose here. already for my whole life. I never even once looked up in the sky in expectation of those bombs I must long for and I never even practiced to slit a throath.
Please educate me some more in the matter you know so much about. You must be born here, I suppose. Yet that must have been in a location and neighbourhood I have no idea off where to find it.
Can you also provide for some pictures of ME/Muslims who cry of joy whenever one of the US or Israel bombs fall on their families?
You can send that one to the Bush Maffia with my complements.
“Victory” is indeed not the US purpose. Occupation and grabbing for the natural resources of Iraq and the region is.
I’m so glad you come to your senses here.
Those soldiers were indeed completely infected with the evil brainwashing system in which they were set to work.
And this can come as a shock to you, so prepare for it : It is doubtful that those who do the killings as AQ members or so called AQ members were born evil. They do what they do because they were brainwashed in doing it by others, just like your soldiers were brainwashed by others in becoming sadistical lunatical little monsters, having fun in what they were doing.
Note: If you want to reason as if you have such a great insight in international terrorism, its causes and its recruting system: I recommend you for your own sake and dignity to do some good reasearch before posing as a specialist in the matter.
The same if you want to declare yourself professor in ME/Muslim matters. Which is my world and forms also a not insignificant part of my studyfield. Thank you for noticing.
Surely they regret now that they became exposed for what they did.
A shock for you again:There are indeed people who do regret they ever lend their ear to the brainwashing recruters and wer led to believe they had to fight in this so called “Jihad”.
Really? So sorry that I have my doubts. You speak as if there are no murderers, sadists, bigots, whatever in the whole of the USA.
You know, that hypocritical US arrogance of declaring to everyone who happens to be the audience “We Are Always The Good Guys and at everything the Best Possible”, while the world outside the USA is deaf nor blind for the real actions and goals of the US governments, is part of the cause so many people dislike the US mentality.
I think there must be something fundamentaly wrong in your education system that so many of you don’t have a clue of what is done by the USA to foster the USA interests worldwide by all means. Incredible that so many of you buy so easily all that repeated propaganda and really believe that the USA is the Good Father of the World.
They (we speak of those who follow the orders here) think that what they do is their duty to whaterver ideology they are lured in to follow. As such they don’t see any evil in it. Just like so many in the USA see no evil at all in invading sovereign nations, bombing thousands of people there in to oblivion, occupying that nation and on the way torturing a little bit some of the citizens.
There is a difference though: these AQ or so called AQ don’t seem to have fun while doing what they are doing. Could be though that they are too much obsessed with their mission for even feeling anything while they are busy furfilling it.
Evil finds already since decades its way to the US government that is propped up by Corporate USA. Evil is found in the way the USA, on a leash from Greedy Capitalism, imposes itself on the rest of the globe in all ways possible, with the denigrating named “Third World” ultimately at the most receiving end of that evil exploitation and oppression.
And there is where you should start your study on how extremism in all its forms can rise, flourish and recrute.
A few days ago I witnessed a demonstration against the USA, with of course the abuse pictures spread all over. I saw however also pictures of The “Leader” Of the “Free” World, decorated with “Terrorist Die”.
So you see… People can have different wiews on who is a terrorist and deserves to drop dead because of that.
Salaam. A
Not all of them do. Many Americans don’t think the prisoners were tortured as much as just played around with. You know, like hazing in fraternities. Our commander-in-chief thinks one of the guilty parties–the one who has accepted full responsibility for this horrible scandal–is a swell guy who should be kept on board. Yeah, the punishment is being meted out alright.
The murder of Nick Berg is horrible, inexcusable. He was killed - murdered - solely because of his nationality, not due actions or affiliations. From what I can tell he went to Iraq back when we thought we had things under control and were actively rebuilding the country.
I think Al Qaeda’s tit-for-tat justification is complete bull. Their history of discrimination between civilians and military, Americans and bystanders is, well, nonexistent. (Even if you buy into their Americans=Evil BS, murdering hundreds of Kenyans and Tanzanians in order to damage the US embassies shows a complete lack of concern for bystanders and/or innocents.) They killed him because they are killers.
The US should pursue the killers as best they can, continuing to hunt down Al Qaeda factions wherever possible, without enabling any more Fallujahs or Abu Ghreibs. That the war on terrorism has finally intersected the war in Iraq changes little about either war. (The Madrid bombings obviously were first intersection but neither occurred or were staged out of Iraq).
I think that Al Qaeda’s motives were not to continue/amplify Arab outrage at the occupation but rather to provoke us to respond. The Abu Ghreib situation helped their story. If they can both distract us from dealing fully with that situation then they gain. If they can provoke us into an over the top response they they gain big time.
Honestly, the time to deal with al-Zarqawi is long past. Apparently three times in 2002 and early 2003 the Pentagon made plans to extirpate his faction which was training in a camp inside the northern no-fly zone. All such plans were nixed by the NSC.
First, dog bites man is not a story. Yes, it’s true, I am so biased that I have extremely low expectations of moral behavior from terrorists in general, Al Qaeda in particular. Perhaps through my low expectations I have enabled their moral failings. :rolleyes:
My expectations from US military personnel is much higher. MUCH higher. We wear the white hats, right? My outrage over our conduct in the prisons exceeds my outrage from, for example, reading Amnesty International reports from various hell-hole tyrannies because it is US doing it. It is the US military, which I admire and respect, doing these things - I feel betrayed as well as outraged.
Second, the ICRC and others (Powell, Bremer) have described mistreatment of prisoners from the beginning. The Taguba report cites failings from Brigade level on down. Our steps so far have been neither swift nor decisive. It is still entirely in the air as to whether the problem will be dealt with fully. Months after the Taguba report personnel were still working in Iraq. It appears as though only due to whistleblowers working with the media has the administration and the Pentagon been goaded into action. It is way too soon to chirp that the system works.