[QUOTE=brewha]
Just what I was thinking. Color me underwhelmed.
A crime commited by people in the military = all military are scum.
That’s like saying that since Jeffery Dahmer was a civilian, all civilians are canniblistic serial killers.
:rolleyes:
[/QUOTE]
The problem is the military sentences its own and gives a bullshit sentence.
[QUOTE=brewha]
wisernow, My problems with the OP is not limited to the fact that he painted the entire military with a broad brush.
The incident he is complaining about happened in Oct of '06. There has already been at least one thread about it, and he hasn’t brought anything new to the table.
[/QUOTE]
The sentencing of Cortez just happened yesterday, though, so that part was new. I think the possibility that he could go free in 10 years is worthy of discussion, even if I don’t endorse the OP’s broadsides against the military. For those of us who might actually like to discuss the story irrespective of the OP’s hyperbole, should we start a new thread or comment in this one as long as it’s here?
[QUOTE=William Strunk Jr.]
The problem is the military sentences its own and gives a bullshit sentence.
[/QUOTE]
A 100 years is a bullshit sentence?
[QUOTE=What Exit?]
**
The Op is completely misreading the article he linked to. The soldier in question is not being given a reduced sentence in an act of cover-up, but rather the **chance ** of parole after 10 years for providing the testimony to convict the others involved in the gang rape and shootings. So the Op is either willfully ignorant or trolling.
[/QUOTE]
There would be no need for plea bargain if this scum had been tried in Iraq by Iraqis. They all would have been hanged by now. Instead the military denies justice to the Iraqi people by not allowing them to be tried by Iraqis.
[QUOTE=wisernow]
I do not know whether the OP or DerTris are Apericans. But American dopers, please try to understand and realize that the non-US dopers cannot, and do not, have the same mindset and emotional attachment to the US military as Americans do. Although factually speaking the action of a few cannot be used to generalize, the fact remains that it happens, especially if the cause of rage is extreme. The mind is not always controlled by rational thinking. Go talk to the family of the murdered and raped Iraqi girl. Their thought process will be exactly, in fact even more, like the OP.
[/QUOTE]
You certainly have a point about perspective and only a fool would disagree with your general sentiments. You’re entirely right that Americans are going to have closer binds to our military folks than those that we are at war against (or even those in other nations of the world).
That said, the OP made an insane generalization, one that called some of my best friends in the world- who happen to be some of the best people I know- the lowest of low scum. Personally, I don’t agree with the war and I certainly agree that there are some shitty people doing shitty things that really need to be punished for those actions, but only a complete idiot would paint with such a wide brush.
And as much as I’d love to talk to the family of that Iraqi girl (and I mean that genuinely, I think dialogue is good for just about everything in this world- we all need to learn a bit more about each other and our perspectives), I can’t. Instead I can talk to my friend whose husband had his face blown off by an IED in Iraq while she was six months pregnant. A friend who is now a single mother of a child whose father, according to the OP, is nothing but scum.
Look, he might have a point, but there is no excuse for that type of generalization. It’s no different than some idiot saying that all Iraqis are evil and live to behead Americans. It’s not only silly, it’s a downright dangerously ignorant viewpoint.
[QUOTE=Miller]
… the video-taped murder of Daniel Berg by starting a thread stating, “All Iraqis are scum,” would you be as understanding?
[/QUOTE]
Daniel Pearl was beheaded by Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. Nick Berg was beheaded by Abu Musab al Zarqawi.
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic]
The sentencing of Cortez just happened yesterday, though, so that part was new. I think the possibility that he could go free in 10 years is worthy of discussion, even if I don’t endorse the OP’s broadsides against the military. For those of us who might actually like to discuss the story irrespective of the OP’s hyperbole, should we start a new thread or comment in this one as long as it’s here?
[/QUOTE]
Lets comment here.
Did the others involved go to trial yet and if so what sentence did they received?
For all the world this sounds like a standard plea bargain to get a lighter sentence at the expense of turning on his fellow criminals. I thought this happened daily in the non-military judicial system.
Jim
[QUOTE=wisernow]
… But American dopers, please try to understand and realize that the non-US dopers cannot, and do not, have the same mindset and emotional attachment to the US military as Americans do…
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=William Strunk Jr.]
There would be no need for plea bargain if this scum had been tried in Iraq by Iraqis. They all would have been hanged by now. Instead the military denies justice to the Iraqi people by not allowing them to be tried by Iraqis.
[/QUOTE]
You seem to be implying that there would be no need for evidence. You seem to be quite comfortable with Death sentences. Are you sure you aren’t a Bush supporter?
Jim
[QUOTE=El Cid Viscoso]
Daniel Pearl was beheaded by Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. Nick Berg was beheaded by Abu Musab al Zarqawi.
[/QUOTE]
:smack:
Can anyone here defend the fact that this sentencing happened in Kentucky and not in Iraq? Why should the American military get to try its own when the Iraqis were the victims and have working courts?
If members of the Iranian military came to America and raped a little girl and then killed her familiy and then the Iranin military stole these individual back to Iran and gave one of them a bullshit sentence, what would feelings be about the members of the Iranian military?
[QUOTE=William Strunk Jr.]
Can anyone here defend the fact that this sentencing happened in Kentucky and not in Iraq? Why should the American military get to try its own when the Iraqis were the victims and have working courts?
If members of the Iranian military came to America and raped a little girl and then killed her familiy and then the Iranin military stole these individual back to Iran and gave one of them a bullshit sentence, what would feelings be about the members of the Iranian military?
[/QUOTE]
There would be an outpouring of hate and stupid yahoos calling for their death.
However there would be plenty of others that would not be completely irrational about the entire mess.
Jim
[QUOTE=DiosaBellissima]
And as much as I’d love to talk to the family of that Iraqi girl (and I mean that genuinely, I think dialogue is good for just about everything in this world- we all need to learn a bit more about each other and our perspectives)
[/quote]
You can’t talk to the family because they’re dead. The entire family was murdered, not just the one girl. One of the victims was her 5 year old sister. What the fuck could you possibly have a “dialogue” about? What the fuck kind of “perspective” do you have to offer to a murdered family? What do you think this murdered family needs to understand about you or the US military? Do you have any idea how patronizing that sounds? How insulting? We’re all very impressed that you have friends in the miltary but where do you get off thinking that these murder victims need to understand your “perspective?” Fuck your perspective.
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic]
The sentencing of Cortez just happened yesterday, though, so that part was new. I think the possibility that he could go free in 10 years is worthy of discussion, even if I don’t endorse the OP’s broadsides against the military. For those of us who might actually like to discuss the story irrespective of the OP’s hyperbole, should we start a new thread or comment in this one as long as it’s here?
[/QUOTE]
I won’t speak for everyone, but I’m fine with staying here.
My concern with the parole opportunity is that this might demonstrate a basic fault line between our justice and theirs. In our system, you get 100 years, but if you drop dime you can get out in 10 with good behavior. In Saddam’s Iraq, you would have said your own sainted father was in the plot, then been put to death. I think there’s plenty of room on the continuum for other options, but this sentence will not be palatable to the Americans I know, let alone the Iraqis.
These men should work on a Joe Arpaio-style chain gang for the rest of their motherfucking lives.
Wow, calm the fuck down, I suppose I didn’t explain myself well.
I meant that I could gain a lot by speaking to them. Regardless though, I don’t see how any sane and rational person can genuinely defend the OP’s generalization that all military people are scum. THAT was my main point, regardless of how poorly I made it.
Back to the OP,
It doesn’t sound like the judge could have been any harsher to me. Hard to chalk that up to a conspiracy.
[QUOTE=Skammer]
Back to the OP, It doesn’t sound like the judge could have been any harsher to me. Hard to chalk that up to a conspiracy.
[/QUOTE]
Why was this fuck ever tried in America. He should have been tried in Iraq were he would have been hanged not given the possibility of getting out in 10 years.
[QUOTE=William Strunk Jr.]
Why was this fuck ever tried in America. He should have been tried in Iraq were he would have been hanged not given the possibility of getting out in 10 years.
[/QUOTE]
Because we generally feel that it’s not in the best interest of our military to subject them to the legal systems of the nations in which they are stationed, which often fall far below what we would consider “fair and impartial.”
[QUOTE=What Exit?]
Lets comment here.
Did the others involved go to trial yet and if so what sentence did they received?
For all the world this sounds like a standard plea bargain to get a lighter sentence at the expense of turning on his fellow criminals. I thought this happened daily in the non-military judicial system.
Jim
[/QUOTE]
Yes, Cortez was spared the death penalty in exchange for testifying against the others. His actual sentence was 100 years. Even though he’ll be eligible for parole in 10 years, I would be shocked if he got out in less than 20.
Of the four other soldiers involved, one of them has already pled guilty and been sentenced to 90 years (don’t know when he’s eligible for parole, two are still waiting to be court martialled and one of them, a guy named Steven Green, who was the alleged ring leader and shooter, was discharged from the military before this crime came to light but is now awaiting federal charges. Of the five men involved, Green is supposely the really bad one. I think he might get the death penalty.
[QUOTE=William Strunk Jr.]
If members of the Iranian military came to America and raped a little girl and then killed her familiy and then the Iranin military stole these individual back to Iran and gave one of them a bullshit sentence, what would feelings be about the members of the Iranian military?
[/QUOTE]
I’d want to kill them - for about 2 seconds. Longer if the sentence were actually bullshit. As much as people might deserve it, and all the perpetrators of this crime do if it went down as alleged, death penalty serves no useful purpose.