US Army Jury: Way to have some fucking integrity!

The BBQ Pit
1

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/01/24/AR2006012401544.html

Long story short:
Chief Warrant Officer Lewis E. Welshofer killed an Iraqi General in interrogation.

“He died while stuffed into a sleeping bag, wrapped in a cord, and with Welshofer straddling his chest.”

“It was about that time that Abed Mowhoush had been beaten by Iraqi paramilitaries code-named “Scorpions,” who were working with the CIA, according to classified documents. Mohammed Mowhoush said he saw some masked Iraqis at the prison, and said at one point they escorted him into a room near where his father was being interrogated. He said they yelled at his father and told him that if he did not tell the truth, they would execute his son.”

“Mohammed Mowhoush yesterday recalled his own arrest on Oct. 27, 2003, when he and his three brothers were taken from their Qaim home as U.S. forces searched for his father. Mohammed, then 15, said U.S. troops arrived in the early morning darkness with helicopters and armored vehicles, and demanded to see his father.”

“Arresting someone to entice relatives to turn themselves in is considered by human rights organizations to be a form of hostage-taking. It is considered illegal in wartime but military investigative documents reveal it has occurred in Iraq.”

A military jury in his court martial convicted him of negligent homicide with a maximum sentence of life in prison. So how has this jury felt fit to punish this bastard? With a reprimand. A fucking reprimand. No prison sentence, no fines, no community service, a fucking reprimand.

That there will be some individuals in every intelligence service that take things too far is a given. I expect that organizations of integrity will do their best to reign these people in and prosecute them criminally when necessary.

I’m not going to lie, I’ve lost a considerable measure of respect for our army today.

2

Porbably the CWO was more valuable as a functioning soldier than as a prisoner in the Midwest. It’s a complicated world we live in, and all information is not available to everyone. Give it a few hundred years and we’ll better understand the sentence.

And I’ll just get it out of the way now:

Why do you hate America?

3

I’m honestly confused. How can it possibly be the case that the punishment for negligent homicide be a reprimand? Am I correct in surmising that sentencing guidelines in military court are non-existent?

4

He got confined to his base and place of worship for 60 days, plus he has to pay a $6,000 fine..
That’s Integrity these days.

5

Simple: “Dammit Mr. Welshofer, you destroyed a valuable source of information! Don’t let it happen again or I’ll have your ass!”

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7

I apologize, I think that a lot of the information in my OP was incorrect. Althouth the Wash. Post article doesn’t mention the fine of $6,00 or confinement to base for 60 days, that was also part of his sentence.

However, my basic point still stands; I feel that this is far too lenient of sentence considering that many of the Abu Gharib offenders that didn’t cause detainee deaths received years in prison.

But again, they were specialists and this guy’s a CWO, so maybe it just proves the old adage, “shit rolls downhill.”

8

What, and you honestly beleived that the military just casually walk the streets, politely knock on doors and ask the people really nicely if they will come with them for questioning? War calls for extreme measures, and I’m certain that the only way for them to get anything done around there is to aggressively cut corners.

He is probably a valuable interrogator; what would be the use of imprisoning him? The war has already got enough bad PR. I’m sure no one is going to care if it is tarnished a little more.

The thing that worries me is that if this is what we hear, then I’d imagine much, much worse goes on over there; and I really don’t care to try and guess what those things may be.

9

It’s not complicated, it couldn’t be more simple:

American Soldiers Can Do No Wrong.

10

Wrong. Wrong, wrong, wrong.

I HAVE been there, and I’m telling you, what this guy did was wrong. If his tactics were authorized, they were wrong. We are supposed to be the good guys, not a bunch of Goddamned animals. We have no right to do some of the stuff that is going on from a legal, ethical and moral perspective.

Trotting out the excuse that “War calls for extreme measures, and I’m certain that the only way for them to get anything done around there is to aggressively cut corners” is utterly despicable. It is precisely because we are in a war that we cannot afford to “cut corners”.

This guy (and the jury that convicted him) has done wrong, and the slap on the wrist that he got compared to people who have committed lesser crimes is incomprehensible.

11

The “sentence” does kinda make a mockery of justice though, doesn’t it?

12

I think we can all agree that this is a new kind of war we’re fighting. A war against an enemy that hates us for reasons that often seem incomprehensible. A war in which world opinion of the United States is of extremely high value. So I think that even if, at any point in history, this sort of behavior has been overlooked in wartime, that practice should end now. It is wrong from a humanitarian standpoint and it is stupid from a tactical standpoint. We need to be able to get what we want from the world community when we want it, and sweeping homicide under the rug is not the way to do it.

13

but I bet it goes into his permanent record!

14

There are a number of factors in Mr. Welshofer’s case that tend to be ignored in a world polarized by political animosity and a sense of moral outrage. We’ve been through this before – for example the Project Phoenix prosecutions that went South when President Nixon declined to make people from other, non-Department of Defense, agencies available.

Consider that this was a court martial composed of serving officers, none junior to the defendant, all of whom have direct or indirect knowledge of the situation in Iraq and the extent to which prisoner interrogations are controlled by often conflicting, changing and ambiguous written orders, directives and regulations, the lack of on-the-ground military supervision and the extensive involvement of CIA and CIA contractors who are often in control to the exclusion of the military structure. The whole thing is exacerbated by the idea, implicit and implied if not explicit and expressed, that the ordinary rules that apply in police stations in the style of NYPD Blues don’t apply and that the tactics and methods of Jack Bauer are close to the approved way to do things. That sort of thinking, the idea that an honest and reasonable man can’t tell what the rules are any more, may have a lot to do with the decision to acquit on the murder charge and convict on involuntary/negligent manslaughter as well as the sentence.

Another factor is that the court martial was presented with a pretty senior officer (although warranted rather than commissioned) with 19 years service and no apparent stains on his record or any indication that he was a lose cannon who was inclined to go off on unauthorized rampages. The guy was a year or so from retirement. A jail sentence necessarily involved a reduction to the lowest grade – a bump from (maybe) CW4 to PV1. A discharge of any sort would do him out of his retirement.

I certainly understand why anyone would be upset over the sentence (which can be reduced but not increased by the general officer who authorized the trial), and even by the findings of guilt. There are, however, factors and the world is not all black and white, however much we would prefer that.

I remain convinced that the real criminals are the higher ups who allowed this sort of thing to happen – some times with a knowing wink and a nudge. These pawns make attractive scapegoats but there are others who bear much more serious and massive culpability.

15

What got done by aggressively tying this corner into a sleeping bag and suffocating it?

Well, he killed his mark. Good or bad, I’m not sure how valuable that is. Besides, the US has a largish military; other valuable interrogators can be found.

Use? He committed a crime. What’s the use of jailing any criminal?

Probably true, but that’s no excuse for condemning murder with a slap on the wrist just because that wrist is in a uniform.

Indeed.

16

If the boot was on the other foot – if, say part of Iraq’s army or Iran’s army managed to capture a US general, and an interrogator negligently killed him – what sort of penalty would the US be calling for? Would a reprimand be enough?

17

I can see where prior service may be a mitigating factor, but I have a hard time feeling bad for someone losing their retirement because of a guilty sentence on a manslaughter charge. One would hope that the prisoner’s life is considered more valuable than the interrogator’s retirement benefits. Manslaughter is certainly a lesser charge than murder, but it still cost the man his life.

In that, I agree with you wholeheartedly. We would not be seeing so many cases of prisoner abuse if there were adequate leadership in regards to treatment of prisoners. Under no circumstances should we be deviating from the Geneva Conventions regarding the treatment of prisoners, and that becomes even more important in a war in which public opinion on all sides counts for so much.

18

You can believe that this story will be all over the Middle East, what this person has done was a criminal act, why should he get any sort of pension ?

His crime has given the anti-US recruiters a huge propaganda victory, and the jury and the ‘punishment’ dished out has simply added to this bonus.

The result will almost certainly be that more US servicepersonnel will die, more Iraqis will die, and the region will be less easily administered.

The fucking murdering scumbag has in fact made it more likely that his colleagues will suffer the consequnecies.

Justify his behaviour all you like, you apologists in the US really wonder why so much of the Mid East absolutely hates you, but yet you make some sort of excuse and justification, and in turn you make the US even more despised because you help create and direct the opinions of those US citizens who happen to be too stupid to develop their own.

Fuck me, why don’t some of you get a clue and listen to the more intelligent and analytical US citizens, instead of saluting the flag every time another little brown person dies in collateral damage or in some murky intelligence torture room.

19

Brownmen, US Service Personnell…of course more will die. If one or the other stopped dying then the war would end. We can’t afford for that to happen. Without a protracted foreign war we would have no choice but to accept a change in leadership in 2008.

I realize your intentions are good, casdave, but I think you misunderstand the purpose of this little “conflict.” It must not end.

20

I agree that the real criminals are the ones up the chain of command who let this type of thing happen, and I dispair of any of them receiving serious or appropriate punishment.

Still, I see your argument as coming dangerously close to the “I was only following orders” cop-out. As a senior and experienced warrant officer, he damn well should have known better. I can sort of see untrained junior enlisted people, Lyndie England and the like, being inappropriate scapegoats. But I can’t see how a 19-year veteran intelligence officer should be given a pass.