American Songwriters

Cafe Society
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Last week, there was a surprise birthday party at my house for my best friend, whose taste in music and mine has very little overlap. I decided it would be pandering to put on the CDs he’s burned for me, and a little too bizarre a combination to put on the overlaps (Mark Knopfler, Liz Phair, and Elvis Costello), so instead I put on a bunch of jazz/standards by the pros – Ella, Louis, Frank, Errol, Billie, Sarah, etc. And I haven’t gotten around to reloading the player with the “usual” stuff – a combination of African, Brazilian, and jazz piano – so I’ve been listening to these CDs for the last week.

Three of them are from a collection called American Songbook, with one disk each dedicated to Irving Berlin, Cole Porter, and George Gershwin, so I’ve been thinking a lot about these three men, clearly the giants of the field. (Yeah, Johnny Mercer, Hoagy Carmichael, Harold Arlen-- but in terms of the numbers of songs, they’re not close. Ellington, yes – but in terms of his songs being covered by everyone in sight, really, not so much. But feel free to discuss this amongst yourselves.)

Here’s my current take on them:

Irving Berlin is too corny. He has, of course, written a couple of great, great songs – “Blue Skies” comes to mind – but a lot of his stuff is just schlock. “Easter Parade”? Puh-leeze. “Count Your Blessing {Instead of Sheep)” – my teeth hurt. His stuff just isn’t as timeless as that of the other two: “Alexander’s Ragtime Band” hasn’t aged well, and neither has “Puttin’ on the Ritz” (and you know how I worship Fred Astaire).

Cole Porter: Serious points for having written my most favorite love song ever, “Night and Day.” Extremely serious points for writing his own lyrics. “I’ve Got You Under My Skin,” “So In Love,” “Anything Goes,” “You’re the Top” – and, of course, “Don’t Fence Me In.” A contender – but, overall, too brittle, too precious, too little honest feeling.

So I have to give it to George Gershwin. “How Long Has This Been Going On,” “Summertime,” “The Man I Love,” “Fascinatin’ Rhythm” " 'S Wonderful," on and on. Yeah, he had lyricists – but his brother Ira was pretty damn good at what he did, too. And as a composer – well, for the first few notes of “Rhapsody in Blue” alone, he takes it all.

What do you think?

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I think it is a pretty fair assessment of the three men. I would however consider the shifting paradigms over the period of their having written. In addition, I’d consider who else belongs in the “American Songbook?”

I think Gershwin also wins as he was in his heart a composer and constantly sought new ways to express ideas musically. While Porter and Berlin were happy to be Song writers. This is likely what gives him the edge.

Just my thoughts.

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You can put Jerome Kern in your second tier as well… He wrote “Smoke Gets In Your Eyes”, “All The Things You Are”, “I Won’t Dance”, “A Fine Romance”, and the much covered in recent times “The Way You Look Tonight”. From “Showboat” he had “Old Man River”, “Can’t Help Lovin’ That Man” and others.

Your huge ommision from the first tier is Richard Rogers, who wrote more great standards than any other (except maybe Irving Berlin). He collaborated with lyricists Lorenz Hart and Oscar Hammerstein.

A partial list:

“Manhattan”, “Blue Moon”, “My Funny Valentine”, “Lady Is A Tramp”, “Where or When”, “Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered”, “Edelweiss”, “My Favorite Things”, “Some Enchanted Evening”. And a million more.

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Yeah, I thought about Rodgers – but because he worked with so many different people, he doesn’t (to me) have the same distinctive “that’s a *** song” vibe as the other three. If you were going to make me go to four in the top tier, I think I’d choose Ellington as the fourth (“Caravan,” “Satin Doll,” “Sophisticated Ladies”). His strength, like Gershwin’s, was as a composer – but he didn’t have the great good fortune to find a lyricist collaborator who brought out the best in him the way Ira Gershwin did with George.

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Irving Berlin is the oldest of these great American Songwriters - he was born in 1888! So, his musical roots are European Jewish and early vaudeville. Gershwin and the others also had this heritage, but they picked up jazz influences and European Classical more than Berlin did.

Berlin primarily wrote his own lyric, as Porter did. George Gershwin dubbed him “America’s Schubert” and Jerome Kern flatly said “Irving Berlin has no place in* American Music, He is American Music”.

Berlin wrote the great anthems of America and Christian holidays: “God Bless America”, “White Christmas”, “Easter Parade”. Not bad for a Jew born in Russia!

Yah, he can sound corny, but also amazingly sophisticated. From the Hollywood years, in which he wrote the music for a series of Astaire and Kelly musicals, came “Let’s Face The Music and Dance”, “Reaching For The Moon”, “Cheek To Cheek”. Nobody, including Cole Porter, combined decadent sadness and haunting melody better.

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Yeah, I’m aware of his age with respect to the others (which is why I was surprised when the people who packaged this set made him Disk III – I put that disk into the player first). Yeah, “White Christmas” – if I didn’t want to blow my brains out on it by now. (See the thread I wrote back around Christmas comparing the versions in Holiday Inn and White Christmas.) And you’ll note I’m not saying he doesn’t deserve a spot among the Big Three – or Big Four, I’m still thinking about your Jerome Kern suggestion, which I might have dismissed too fast. I’m just saying that, in terms of songs I’m always happy to hear a great new cover of – he’s last on that list.

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Sure - I understand.

I was assessing the “list” more from the viewpoint of historical influence, and you were basing it on subjective preference as you hear the songs now.

Gershwin wrote two of the most perfect songs ever: “(Our) Love Is Here To Stay”, and “Summertime”. If I were to criticise him it would be that clever technique and harmonic complexity would seduce him at times and pure, absolute song-writing then takes a second seat.

Ellington, I don’t know much about other than he was granted a writing credit on many songs because of his position of Band-Leader and arranger. Billy Strayhorn probably has an equal share in his success. His songs are not ones I can hum to myself, or play on the piano… they are different than the Tin Pan Alley 32 bar creations. “Caravan” is masterpiece - a jazz tone poem.

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Any thread on American Songwriters would not be complete without a mention of Stephen Foster(1826-1864) composer of “Oh, Susanna” , “Swanee River” and “My Old Kentucky Home” among many, many more- mostly now forgotten.

I am expressing no opinion on how various American Songwriters compare- just ensuring that Foster is not left out by mistake.

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K364 – dang. there you had to go and get all reasonable on me – I hate it when two people who take opposing sides respect each other’s point of view! :wink: Yeah, I should have been a lot clearer in the OP about where I was coming from – “Here am I listening to about 50-60 minutes each on these guys, which of them am I enjoying the most?” Part of this was that I’d forgotten that I had this set till I was rummaging around in the “jazz and standards – collections” section of my CDs. Ever since I saw De-Lovely last summer, I’ve been thinking about making an all-Cole-Porter mix CD (to match the all-Gershwin one I did a few years ago). Okay – “Night and Day,” Fred’s version, natch – “So in Love,” Caetano Veloso – “After You Who,” Jody Watley – “Begin the Beguine,” Artie Shaw, natch --“From This Moment On,” Ella – etc. So I was glad to find I had a nice version of “You Do Something to Me” (Benny Goodman) and “Just One of those Things” (Coleman Hawkins). Now if I could just find a version I really like of “I’ve Got You Under My Skin” – this set has Louis Prima and Keely Smith, and it’s way too upbeat.

On Ellington – part of my fondness is based on the soundtrack to Sophisticated Ladies, which I have on vinyl (it doesn’t seem to be out on CD, to my chagrin). I’ve toyed with the idea of doing a mix CD of nothing but versions of Caravan, since so many people have done so many truly cool things with that song. You might want to check out this album by Jon Hassell, where he’s weaving it in and out of a bunch of other stuff. Very spacey, but very good.

Eureka – good point on Stephen Foster. He’s written a lot of stuff that you have to stop and think, “oh right, someone wrote that song,” since they’re so thoroughly embedded in our consciousness. “Camptown Races” is another one.

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Does Henry Mancini fit in there anywhere?

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I don’t know. I’d say that Rodgers and Hammerstein have a very distinct sound from Rogers and Hart, and each of those duos sound distinctly like themselves.

Cole Porter writes wonderful music. As a pianist, of all the folks you’ve mentioned his writing always surprises me in how complex it it but how simple it sounds. His chords often surprise me.

Lyrics-wise though, he can be hit-or-miss, IMO. Though lately I’ve come to like some of the tunes I didn’t used to.

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Poor Harry Warren. Here is someone who rates up with all the names mentioned above (I’d rate him 4th overall, after Gershwin, Porter, and Berlin, and just ahead of R&H and Jerome Kern), and no one even knows his name.

You do, however, know his songs:

42nd Street
Lullabye of Broadway
I Only Have Eyes for You
Shuffle Off to Buffalo
We’re In the Money
The Lady in Red
That’s Amore
Chattanooga Choo Choo
I Found a Million Dollar Baby (in a Five and Ten Cent Store)
You’re Getting to be a Habit with Me
Jeepers Creepers
On the Atcheson, Topeka, and the Santa Fe
Honeymoon Hotel
Dames

His songs were in over 800 movies, most famously in Busby Berkeley’s best-known films (the CD of his best songs – Lullabye of Broadway – doesn’t mention his name anywhere on the cover; Berkeley – who didn’t write a note – is credited!). Most of the big production numbers Berkeley staged were Warren’t music.

Even when they turned his songs into a Broadway musical (42nd Street), his name was in very fine print. His songs are still showing up in movies today. Whenever a character in a Looney Tunes cartoon in the 30s or 40s broke into song, the odds are it was based on a Harry Warren song.

But Warren is next to unknown to the general public. He did work with a variety of lyricists, and his songs – though memorable – do not have the depth of Gershwin, the brilliant lyrics of Porter, or the honest emotion of Berlin. But, damn, why is someone so talented always overlooked in lists like this?

Visit www.harrywarren.org and get some idea of his talent.

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I’ll respectfully submit Aaron Copland, Benny Goodman, and Glenn Miller.

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Goodman and Miller weren’t composers.

My picks for pantheon seats:

Kern, Berlin, Gershwin, Porter, Rodgers, and Warren, with honorable mentions to Ellington, Arlen, and Vincent Youmans.

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Governor Quinn – I don’t know Vincent Youmans. Who he?

Sam Stone – I’d vote no on Henry Mancini – “Moon River” and the “Pink Panther” theme – and that’s about it. For people of that era, I think I’d go for Bacharach and David first – or maybe the Brill Bldg. people – or Holland-Dozier-Holland.

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I’ll add Frank Loesser, Nacio Herb Brown, Hoagy Charmichael, Jimmy McHugh, Ralph Rainger, Richard Withing, James Van Heusen, and Jule Styne. Not at the top (except maybe for Loesser), but all first-class songwriters.

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If we’re expanding this to Holland-Dozier-Holland (and I’m not complaining) we’re opening it wide.

So let’s not forget Lieber-Stoller or Goffin-King.

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This be he

Had he not been forced to retire due to TB in the mid-1930’s, he’d probably be on the same level as his peers, Gershwin and Rodgers.

RealityChuck- Loesser would be at my top- but I was trying to limit my pantheon to people who had been established before 1940. He is in the poast-1940 pantheon, though.

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That’s who I meant by the Brill Building.

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I prefer to distinguish between songwriters and composers. A song is sung - it has lyrics. Most of what Ellington and Copland wrote were not songs.

By the way, Ellington wrote a bunch of great music before he ever met Billy Strayhorn, including Black and Tan Fantasy, Black Beauty, East St. Louis Toodle-Oo, I Let a Song Go Out of My Heart, In a Mellow Tone, It Don’t Mean a Thing If It Ain’t Got That Swing, The Mooche, Mood Indigo, Prelude to a Kiss, Rockin’ in Rhythm, Solitude, Sophisticated Lady and Stompy Jones. Juan Tizol should get at least part of the credit for Caravan, which was also written pre-Strayhorn (and which Tizol may have written entirely on his own).

It’s not clear to me whether we’re including lyricists. Some people have mentioned a few of them, including the OP, but others seem to only want to talk about the songwriters (i.e. the people who wrote the music). What about Dorothy Fields and Sammy Cahn, for example?

As for Hoagy Carmichael, I’m not sure I buy the idea that he didn’t write enough to be considered among the greats. While it’s true he wasn’t as prolific as, say, Cole Porter, what Carmichael did write had impact. Star Dust was a groundbreaking piece - way ahead of its time (on the other hand, it didn’t originally have lyrics - Mitchell Parish wrote the words after the tune had been around a while - so is Star Dust really a song under my definition?). I consider Hoagy Carmichael a more important songwriter than many who were more prolific (e.g. DeSylva, Brown and Henderson, who wrote a huge number of hits but whose work mostly sounds dated today - fun, but dated).