Amish at the DMV? Amish and photography.

[Welfy]

Do the Amish have a rule against having their picture taken? If so, are they still required by law to have an identification card in case of a crime? Do the Amish need a license to drive their horse and buggies?

I ask these questions because I was at the local Department of Motor Vehicles a few weeks ago; I sat next to a very young, bearded Amish man and his non-Amish driver. They were waiting for two others who were in the one office, coincidentally the same office that ID pictures are taken. When the one young girl emerged from the office and came to sit with the two men, the driver asked to see what she had and she took out something that looked like an ID card/license. The driver wolf-whistled jokingly and the girl giggled. Then the other girl came out of the office and they all left. They were all wearing the traditional blue clothing, and the girls wore bonnets.

I live near New Wilmington, Pennsylvania, if that helps. There’s a rather large Amish community there.

[Q.E.D]

@Welfy

Do the Amish have a rule against having their picture taken?

I’ve seen dozens, if not hundreds, of photographs of Amish people, so I’d say not.

@Welfy

If so, are they still required by law to have an identification card in case of a crime?

No private citizen is required by law to have an ID card. They come in handy for some things, like cashing checks and buying liquor, but they aren’t generally required.

@Welfy

Do the Amish need a license to drive their horse and buggies?

I don’t believe so, since they aren’t motor vehicles, but I’m not 100% sure.

[Welfy]

@Q.E.D.

I’ve seen dozens, if not hundreds, of photographs of Amish people, so I’d say not.

Have any been of their faces? Every single Amish postcard I have seen shows the Amish people with their backs to the camera or so far in the distance that their faces cannot be seen. I have seen their faces in books about the Amish, but it’s very rare and my boyfriend claims that many of those pictures are taken without their permission by people with zoom-lens cameras.

[Lsura]

@Q.E.D.

I’ve seen dozens, if not hundreds, of photographs of Amish people, so I’d say not.

According to This page:

“Why do Old Order Amish not like having their pictures taken?”
"Old Order Amish and Mennonites forbid photography of their people, and their objection is based on the second commandment, Exodus 20:4: "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth

[VunderBob]

In Indiana, pre-9/11, the Amish could get a driver’s license or state ID without a photo, based on a religious exemption. Post 9/11, there were rumblings about requiring photos for everyone, but I’ve since moved out of the state, so I do not know if they are now required.

Also in Indiana, a horse and buggy can use the roads by displaying a slow moving vehicle emblem. The carriages for hire in downtown Indianapolis have plates, and I don’t know the distinction, but I’ll bet it’s because the carriages in Indy are considered to be for-hire and therefore commercial, whereas an Amish buggy is not.

Since you’re in Pennsylvania, YMMV.

[VunderBob]

I forgot to add that the Amish objection is because a photograph is considered a graven image.

[tomndebb]

Pennsylvania permits the issuance of Licenses and ID cards without photos for religious reasons:
67 Pa. Code § 73.3 (2003) Allows license that is valid without a photograph upon certification that having photographs taken would violate the applicant’s religious beliefs.

The Amish are organized into fairly independent bishoprics. I have noticed that what one group will prohibit, another group may allow (or allow under restrictions). I would guess that some groups may accept photo IDs in some cases. (Alternatively, the girls might have been getting the ID with photo behind their parents’ backs.)

[Dewey_Finn]

@tomndebb

Pennsylvania permits the issuance of Licenses and ID cards without photos for religious reasons:
67 Pa. Code § 73.3 (2003) Allows license that is valid without a photograph upon certification that having photographs taken would violate the applicant’s religious beliefs.

The Amish are organized into fairly independent bishoprics. I have noticed that what one group will prohibit, another group may allow (or allow under restrictions). I would guess that some groups may accept photo IDs in some cases. (Alternatively, the girls might have been getting the ID with photo behind their parents’ backs.)

Are they rebelling by getting a photo ID? If so, that’s pretty funny.

[Chronos]

Another point: Are you sure that the folks you met were Amish? Menonnites generally wear similar styles of clothing and facial hair to the Amish, and are mostly farmers, but the Menonnites are, as a general rule, more permissive than the Amish (most Menonnites allow motor vehicles, electricity, etc, though they might still have restrictions on their use). Of course, neither the Amish nor the Menonnites are a single monolithic body; as tomndebb mentioned, different communities have different rules.

[Welfy]

@Chronos

Another point: Are you sure that the folks you met were Amish? Menonnites generally wear similar styles of clothing and facial hair to the Amish, and are mostly farmers, but the Menonnites are, as a general rule, more permissive than the Amish (most Menonnites allow motor vehicles, electricity, etc, though they might still have restrictions on their use). Of course, neither the Amish nor the Menonnites are a single monolithic body; as tomndebb mentioned, different communities have different rules.

I was wondering about that myself, but if they were allowed to drive cars…why did they have a driver with them? Unless they were getting their licenses to drive and needed someone to accompany them. If that was the case, however, I assumed that one of the other Mennonites who could drive would come with them.

I know there are a lot of different sects of the Amish and Mennonites. I know at least two Mennonites at my Christian college and I would have never known it had they not told me. They dressed and acted just like anyone else would. So maybe these were more lenient Amish/Mennonites I encountered at the DMV.

[asterion]

Is there any good way to tell when you just happen to meet someone? On my last trip to Chicago on Amtrak, about half the car I was in was filled with either Amish or Mennonites (I have no idea which). It was a nice and quiet ride as a result, but I thought that I would be rude if I were to go up and start asking questions, so I never found out which. I think they got off somewhere in Indiana.

[Terminus_Est]

They could very well have been getting a driver’s license.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/amish.htm
They practice a tradition called rumspringa (“running around”) in which Amish teens aged 16 and older are allowed some freedom in behavior. It is a interval of a few years while they remain living at home, yet are somewhat released from the intense supervision of their parents. Since they have not yet been baptized, they have not committed to follow the behavioral restrictions and community rules imposed by the religion. They may date, go out with their friends, visit the outside world, etc. The intent of rumspringa is to make certain that youth are giving their informed consent if they decide to be baptized. About 80% decide to remain Amish.

The documentary feature Devil’s Playground shows Amish teenagers driving (automobiles), partying, and dealing drugs.

[ZipperJJ]

As Terminus Est explained, that’s indeed what the girl and the gentleman were doing. Amish kids can drive and get their licenses, but they need a driver to get them to the DMV

As for photos, it all depends on whatever congregration you belong to, which can vary from farm to farm in most parts!

[Munch]

@asterion

Is there any good way to tell when you just happen to meet someone? On my last trip to Chicago on Amtrak, about half the car I was in was filled with either Amish or Mennonites (I have no idea which). It was a nice and quiet ride as a result, but I thought that I would be rude if I were to go up and start asking questions, so I never found out which. I think they got off somewhere in Indiana.

Those were probably Mennonites, as northern Indiana has several communities of them.

[MelCthefirst]

During ‘rumspringa’ do many girls get pregnant? Not sure how much they would know about reproduction and contraception before going on rumspringa, and going wild would surely include sexual activity?

[Abbie_Carmichael]

I just watched Devil’s Playground last week. Fascinating. Go find it and watch it.

During ‘rumspringa’ do many girls get pregnant?
Some do, yes. Also some get knocked up while they’re not rumspringing. Every problem the secular world has, the Amish have it too.

Not sure how much they would know about reproduction and contraception before going on rumspringa

Very little, yeah. No contraceptin’ goin on. Maybe the boys have condoms. I imagine it’d be hard for an Amish girl to get to a doctor that would give her the Pill, though.

and going wild would surely include sexual activity?

You betcha.

The big time for weddings when you’re Amish is a Tuesday or a Thursday in November. That’s pretty much when most of them get hitched. Any other time of the year and everyone knows that the couple “has” to get married.

Oddly enough the Amish encourage kids that are dating (as in getting serious) to share a bed after a date. They’re supposed to talk a lot and get to know each other, but the Amish aren’t stupid. Put 2 kids in a dark room and sometimes you’ve just gotta get married in the spring. I wonder if maybe they hope there will be a pregnancy, so there will be a marriage.

In Kentucky we had mostly Mennonites. You could tell because of the way they were dressed and because they were a bit more open to conversation with strangers. IME the Amish don’t want to talk to you if they can help it, and, where I grew up anyway, had more kids than the Mennonites did.

My mother was a sample lady at Sam’s and she says both types had EXTREMELY well behaved kids; they never acted up in the store. They’d shyly come up to her and ask her nicely if they could have <insert sample of the day here> and they’d always say thank you afterwards and throw away their toothpick or whatnot.

As far as the Amish around here (WV/OH): from what I’ve heard they hire drivers and rent vans all the time to take them places. I think for them it’s not so much USING technology that’s considered bad, it’s owning it that they have a problem with because they see some forms of technology as having the potential to undermine the family structure. (Ex: if you have a TV you’ll start spending time watching it rather than playing with your brothers and sisters, etc.)

Rumspringa is amazing and I think shows their great faith in God.

I mean, they believe you’re not saved until you get baptized and join the church. If you die during rumspringa, you’re going to hell. How they can believe this and then step back and let their kids run wild for a while anyway shows that they’ve put their kids in God’s hands and trust that when the time comes they’ll settle down.

And they do. Their retention rates are almost 90% these days; the highest in their history.

[VunderBob]

@Munch

Those were probably Mennonites, as northern Indiana has several communities of them.

They could also be Amish, Munch. The Amish community there keeps close ties to the Amish in Ohio, SE Pennsylvania, and Ontario. It is a common practice to charter a van to transport people between those groups. The Amish in Northern Indiana aren’t afraid to use modern technology like cars and power tools, so long as they don’t own it.

Also, if you see a nice, commercial picture with the face of an ‘Amish’ member, then you’ve probably got an Old Order Mennonite as an actor/actress.

Amish girls do occasionally get knocked up during rumspringa. If they decide to come back, the kid is welcomed, and nothing is ever said about his/her origin. What happens in Rumspringa stays in Rumspringa. If the teens in rumspringa decide to stay out in the English world, they are still members of the family. However, if they come back and are baptised, then decide the plain life isn’t for them, then they are shunned; in essence, dead. They can get wild, but the majority of those who don’t come back wind up in the Mennonite church, which is virtually identical in doctrine, but not in practice of everyday life.

That documentary was filmed in the town where I grew up, and focused on the more lurid examples of the wild summer.

[Broomstick]

@Munch

Those were probably Mennonites, as northern Indiana has several communities of them.

Indiana has its share of Old Order Amish, too. My experience in riding trains around Illinois, Indiana, and Michigan for the past 20 years has been that if you see someone who looks rather Amish there’s a good chance they are Amish, as they don’t have the same ready access to cars as Mennonites and depend more on the trains.

[Welfy]

@Abbie Carmichael

Rumspringa is amazing and I think shows their great faith in God.

I mean, they believe you’re not saved until you get baptized and join the church. If you die during rumspringa, you’re going to hell. How they can believe this and then step back and let their kids run wild for a while anyway shows that they’ve put their kids in God’s hands and trust that when the time comes they’ll settle down.

And they do. Their retention rates are almost 90% these days; the highest in their history.

I have done extensive research on the Amish for a college class and thought this was a fascinating concept. I think a lot of regular families could benefit from doing this. I know way too many students at my college who were raised so strictly that the second they get to college, they crash and burn and end up in a lot of trouble. If their parents had let them have more freedom as teenagers, they probably would have ended up more well-adjusted.

I grew up in a fairly strict household, but my parents were very democratic with my brother and I in the sense that we all discussed our problems and solutions together. Sure, my mom took away my “swear word” cds every now and then and frowned on me being alone with boys, but I turned out okay. I haven’t gotten thrown into prison or anything too horrible.

[TeaElle]

It should be noted that the Amish community where Welfy is (WC or GCC, Welfy? My sister-in-law is GCC class of '78) does use “English” banks. This is, to my knowledge, fairly unusual, but it was deemed to be safer for the community than keeping large sums of cash in their homes. As a consequence, in this day and age it would seem to go along that they would have to have official identification from the state.