Not the book, which I just ordered, but the way of life.
I remember reading that right after the killing of those five girls and the injuring of five more, the victim’s family went to comfort the killer’s family. Granted, the killer’s family had nothing to do with the horror, and had to be suffering greatly, but the Amish forgave the killer and solace to his family.
Then I hear tonight that donations came to the victim’s family from around the family, and they shared that with the killer’s family.
Hell, I can’t forgive the killer, though I do sympathize greatly with his family.
How do they do it? I had a good friend when I was younger who was a Quaker, and he shared some (many?) beliefs with the Amish. Totally generous, forgiving, and nom-judgemental. I miss him a lot. But I never did learn how he was like he was.
I am totally irreligious myself, but I admire that those folks can do as they do.
So, enlighten me please.
I grew up in the middle of a huge Amish community in Ohio. How do they do it? Same as anyone learns to do anything: Practice.
They shared and forgave genuinely and unaffectedly. To amplify Lizard’s observation, they are raised from earliest childhood with an emphasis on Biblical admonitions to ‘forgive so that you may be forgiven by God,’ part of their complex of nonviolence beliefs. They forgive naturally, it’s the expected response in their society.
And this forgiveness, as in this particular case, is practiced to the full Biblical extent of its implications. But what about in other cases such as their relationships among themselves? For what ‘the world’ would consider extremely picayune religious and social deviations splits occur within Amish fellowships and members can be shunned and expelled from the community.
Forgiving is often more healing for the forgiver than for the forgiven. Those who let go of anger, hate, and resentment can find a peace that would otherwise elude them.
Do you also admire their rabid homophobia?
No. I get to pick and choose what I admire. Most religions, by far, are rabidly homophobic. Very few are so forgiving.
Actually, it’s more a forgiving, understated homophobia.
There was a piece on NPR yesterday (Tuesday) afternoon – All Things Considered, I think – that talked about the Amish capacity for forgiveness. I couldn’t help but think about the difference between the way the Amish embraced the horrified and stricken family of their children’s killer and the reactions of the parents of the teen-agers killed at Columbine High School almost a decade ago. Some of the Columbine parents are still full of hate and anger, much of it aimed at the very people who tried to save the kids but couldn’t because there just wasn’t a known response to what was happening. I think we all could learn from the Amish when it comes to suffering gracefully.
The Amish are homophobic?
No, they have no phobia at all about homosexuality. They believe it’s immoral. There is a difference. They also believe drinking, drugs, pre-marital sex, adultery, lying, cheating, stealing, and violence are immoral. Of course, like humans everywhere, they still occasionally do all of these things anyway.
A few years ago, Ohio had “Proposition 1” on the ballot, which would put a ban on same-sex marriage, in the state constitution. The Amish came out of the woodwork to campaign for the proposition. These were people who had never voted before, had never expressed any interest in politics. I drove through the area at that time, and almost every yard or farm had a sign out front in support of the proposition. And they were worded: “Support Proposition 1 . . . for our children” or “Support Proposition 1 . . . for our schools . . . for our families.” And with the help of all these new voters, Proposition 1 passed. If that isn’t homophobia, I don’t know what is.
I see. So your rationale for indicting an entire ethnic and cultural group is based on driving through an area where you know Amish live, and seeing campaign signs on random lawns of people whom you don’t know are Amish or not. Why, that makes perfect sense. :rolleyes:
Having lived cheek to jowl with the Amish, I wouldn’t be surprised if some of them went into voting booths and did in fact vote for Proposition 1. But then, I would be astonished first they went into the voting booth at all. They do not routinely vote en masse, and they definitely don’t “campaign” for anything. (And if putting a sign on one’s yard is “campaigning” then you’ve got really weak standards.)
The Amish are religious and conservative, but they are not “religious conservatives.” They have more common sense than anyone who watches Pat Robertson. Nor are they easily manipulated through a need to belong to a movement or group greater than themselves; just being Amish already fills that need. They don’t give a shit about politics, statewide ballot issues, or cultural trends. They don’t really care about schools, because they rarely attend past 7th grade. By and large, all these things have no effect on the pocket universe the Amish live in. Neither does gay marriage.
Lizard, who voted against Proposition 1.
That’s a mighty broad definition of “homophobia” you’ve got there. There are certain segments of society – by no means limited to the Amish – that believe that marriage is a sacrament that should be limited to single heterosexual couples. This does not necessarily translate to broad hatred of or fear of homosexuals. It’s hard to see how the Amish could possibly be described as “rabid” anything.
Yes, “homophobia” is a broad term, and it includes the idea that there should be no same-sex marriages. And for people who had never voted before (or since) to vote for one specific anti-gay issue . . . and to characterize same-sex marriage as a threat to their children and families . . . is very significant.
panache, do you actually know that the yards in which you saw signs were owned by Amish families? “Amish Country” is not exclusively populated by the Amish.
And it’s also possible that one sect of Amish did decide to become active regarding Proposition 1 (though it seems unlikely). But even if they did, there are a bunch of different sects of Amish, and even some sects of very conservative Mennonite that would look Amish to the unfamiliar eye. They certainly wouldn’t all have done so.
Regardless of whether you’re defining homophobia broadly, you’re certainly painting all Amish with the same brush, which is not accurate. (Not that you’re alone in that. Most people do.)
Except you haven’t established the Amish actually did this, beyond some extremely circumspect anecdotal evidence and superficial observations. As I and the article I linked to above said, the Amish don’t pay any attention to things like this and never have. They had/have no reason to get involved. I’m sure lots of the conservative non-Amish in that part of the state supported Prop 1, but that’s a different matter.
Oh please. I was there. I saw the signs in front of their homes and businesses. And there were many news stories about how they were getting involved in politics for the first time, and how their numbers could affect the election’s outcome. It wasn’t merely a “superficial observation” on my part.
It certainly can include opposition to same-sex marriage, but that opposition, without more, does not alonequalify as “homophobia” under any reasonable definition of the term.
- You don’t know that the signs you saw were in the yards of Amish people.
- Even if they were, you don’t know that their opposition to same-sex marriage was because it was “a threat to their children and families.” Unless you have a cite for this?
- Again even assuming Amish homeowners, you don’t know that those Amish people voted on the issue or did anything other than place a sign.
- Even if they did vote on that issue, you don’t know that they had never voted before or since. Amish citizens have the same rights to vote as everyone else, and ISTM likely that an Amish person taking a political stance on one issue certainly may have voted on other issues, both before or after.
But don’t let a few inconvenient facts prevent you from consigning yet another entire group of people to the ranks of Evil Homophobes. :rolleyes:
Do you have some cites for Amish participation in defeating 2004 Ohio Prop. 1? The only cites I have been able to find are second-hand reports from some guy named “Burress” who headed up the campaign to defeat the proposition and who claimed that he had heard (for who knows who) that Amish were coming out to vote against the proposition.
Look. At the time, there were quite a few local news stories about this. If you want to believe that I made it all up, go right ahead. My intention wasn’t to hijack this thread, only to point out that not everybody shares the OP’s adulation of the Amish. That’s all I have to say.
Of course, because as long as people are talking about people showing forgiveness to murderers, it’s important to leap in with a self-important screechy little hissy-fit about gay rights. It is to roll eyes.