You are right - I mixed issues and I should not have done that!
So your proposal is to end immigrant farm labor, as it will be replaced with mechanization instead which will also lower prices?
Would you add in enforcement to stop farms from using illegals?
How would you force them to go mechanized?
Sure, but what makes you think the economic and social cost would be worth it ?
And you would HAVE professionals faking them. And the fancier the card and the systems to read and validate them become, the more expensive the whole system becomes. There’s an aura of cutting off your nose to spite your face about all this; I can’t see how it can be a net benefit.
And when they are denied such a visa, they will be sent where ? This is their homeland. And what makes you think they won’t be turned back at the border, that Mexico won’t want to deal with our artificially created unpeople ? And they WILL be denied visas, since this entire issue is about bigotry, about punishing the Evil Brown People.
And what makes you thinking caving into the bigots and treating foreigners as some sort of plague upon the land will do anything of the sort ?
As I said at the start, let in anyone in who’s not a non-political criminal, and make it easier to become a citizen. I simply don’t think that the eeeevuuul immigrants are the massive problem so many claim they are.
I disagree that this is caving into bigots. While there are bigots who are anti-immigration, there are also others with legit serious economic, environmental, and cultural concerns about our nation.
I am arguing for opening up the doors MORE than they are now, but simply having a better system of tracking and taxing.
You are arguing (it appears) that we should have unlimited worker immigration. Would you also make that unlimited immigration for citizenship reasons? Would you have any restrictions other than criminal record?
Yes and no. Some would be replaced by mechanization, some would be replaced by American workers receiving higher wages.
Yes. See my first post in this thread.
That’s the beauty of it; once the illegals leave, mechanized is cheaper. Don’t have to force them.
And I think that bigotry is the core of it. It’s just a replay of worries about the “Yellow Peril”. It’s just the Brown Peril this time.
I don’t care about tracking, and they pay plenty of taxes, contrary to the racist mythology. And it IS racist; one never hears about British or Canadian immigrants not paying taxes and being this terrible, terrible burden. Just the brown people from the south.
Serious contagious disease, now that I think about it. And I’m fine with any non-criminals who want to become citizens. I tend to regard immigrants as being a benefit; by immigrating, they prove themselves more ambitious and flexible than those who stay home. As I said, if anyone should worry, it’s the country they are leaving.
[QUOTE=Der Trihs]
And I think that bigotry is the core of it. It’s just a replay of worries about the “Yellow Peril”. It’s just the Brown Peril this time.
Would you also accuse the Hispanics that oppose the amnesty bill of being bigots?
Quite possibly; that sort of devil’s bargain version of bigotry isn’t unknown. If they aren’t then they are both selfish, and likely fools for supporting their enemies.
And I see no evidence at all that they are “at the core” of it anyway.
Well, to be fair:
a) Britain isn’t right next door to the U.S., where anyone with a couple of legs can concievably get in and live without anyone knowing.
b) I don’t see huge numbers of Canadians waiting eagerly to get in all at once. Heck, those on the left side of the political aisle believe that Canada is a superior version of the U.S. anyway; why would they?
[QUOTE=Der Trihs]
If they aren’t then they are both selfish, and likely fools for supporting their enemies.
So they shouldn’t be allowed to have their own opinion on the subject … they should be required to blindly side with their own race?
I don’t think you can do anything to stop it. I think that in the future will tell of the mass migration of the Mexicans into America. If there is no way to live ,people go where they hope it will be better. You can’t stop it. Maybe slow it down a little but it is inevitable. Borders are just lines on a map.
Yes, of course; as Emperor of All That Is Right, they are required to agree with me. :rolleyes:
Really, I didn’t say that they should be required to be against the people who hate illegal immigrants ( and how would I require them ? ); I am saying that they are foolish to side with people who in many or most cases hate them as well. Living in California I have to deal a lot with these people, and in my experience concern for illegal immigration is a thin veneer over racism. They say they are against illegal immigrants, but they don’t hesitate to label anyone brown “Mexican” and demand they be sent over the border, legal or not.
If I rob a bank in violation of federal law and people want me to not benefit from that crime, they are concerned citizens. If I illegally cross the border in violation of federal law and people want me to not benefit from that crime, they are bigots? Hmmmm . . . and let me guess. Anyone who wants to put a black criminal in jail must be a racist. Of course, it would have nothing to do with the fact that they COMMITTED A CRIME now would it?
And my experience is quite the opposite (also in California). I think most people distinguish between those here legally and those that broke the laws to get here. Maybe those people just believe in obeying the law and feel that others should as well.
There’s a much bigger distinction between brown people speaking Spanish and brown people speaking English than there is between brown people being here legally and brown people being here illegally.
Did that make sense? I don’t care. Concern for illegal immigration is like concern for voter fraud. It’s a thin veil to use as a justification for doing (or thinking) something dirty.
If all those brownies would just learn not to speak Spanish when they’re around proper folk, there wouldn’t be a problem, right? We’re all thinking it, I’m just saying it.
From wiki:
According to a Pew Hispanic Center report, Mexicans make up about 57 percent of the illegal immigrants with another 24 percent coming from Central American and South American countries, approximately 9 percent from Asia, 6 percent from Europe and Canada, with the remaining 4 percent from the rest of the world.[2]
So, anybody that doesn’t support an open border policy is racist? Or a fool. Or a xenophobe. Or a traitor to their race?
Or they simply don’t care, and aren’t on either side. Or they are cynical manipulators, drumming up racism for their own political profit. Or things I haven’t thought of.
Still, I think that most of the people who worry about immigration are “racist? Or a fool. Or a xenophobe.” As for “traitor to their race”, I’d call them “self destructive fools” instead.
You know, running around calling people names has nothing to do with this topic.
The question on the table is “What would you do regarding the (illegal) immigration situation?”
(Alternatively: “What should we do regarding the (illegal) immigration situation?”.)
If anyone would like to open up a new thread arguing the motivations of those who either favor or oppose immigration, open borders, secure borders, or whatever, feel free to do so, but let’s not hijack this thread into some sort of IMHO poll regarding motives that we will never resolve.
Motivation for holding an opinion regarding this topic is off the table as a topic in this thread.
[ /Moderating ]
That’s unconstitutional.
Yes it is, unless the constitution is changed to eliminate the automatic citizenship provision. While an Immigration Czar could not change the Constitutional unilaterally, recommending such a change would be one thing he/she could certainly do.
One of the biggest contentions I have with the debate is the argument, “They take jobs American’s don’t want!” Horseturds.
Perhaps these are jobs Americans would take if they paid a wage consummerate with strenuous manual labor? If the cost of strawberries go up, then so be it; indeed, if the United States of America can survive the depression and both World Wars, we can live paying a few extra bucks for agricultural goods. If farms were required to pay, let’s say, $36,000 a year per employee, you’d have an exodus of Americans wanting those jobs. I’m certain that you can think of an unemployed, but motivated individual in your own family who’d do very well making a living in agriculture if the pay was equitable.