An atheist asks about the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ

[Pushkin]

On a serious scholarly note I might add, I’ll snark about other people’s religious beliefs elsewhere.

Is there anywhere in the Bible or other texts that explains how Jesus and the Christian God are all part of the one entity, but that God and Jesus made a sacrifice through the crucifixion? God of his son (who was a part of him and he could take into heaven if he pleased) and Jesus of his life (which he knew wasn’t the same thing as his immortal soul).

Again, I ask seriously and ask knowing that such things are pored over by various churches and their academics.

[Trinopus]

Too big a question, no concrete answers. Read the Bible, and you will have pretty much all the information that anyone, anywhere, ever, can offer you.

Various denominations of Christianity interpret scripture differently. There are Trinitarians and anti-Trinitarians. Some say Jesus was in hell while dead; others say he simply slept. Some say that the dead (like your great grandfather) are in heaven (or hell) now; others say they sleep dreamlessly until the day of resurrection and judgement. Theology is a million times too messy for us to give you quick and easy answers here.

(Me? I’m lobbying for Dante’s Divine Comedy to be accepted as Revealed Truth and added to the Bible. Y’figure?)

[Jragon]

“Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” John 8:58

Not explicit, but if you’re familiar with the Old Testament, God says “I Am” a lot. It’s basically his calling card when people ask who he is. Jesus saying the same words is, effectively, Jesus saying he is God.

[deltasigma]

It’s an apparent contradiction and part of the reason why there is a whole branch of Christianity devoted to Christian mysticism. It should be noted that there are many parallels between Xtian mysticism and the mysticism you find in other faiths including Islam and Buddhism. In fact if you read some of these writings, you periodically have to remind yourself of the particular belief system from which it springs.

[Skald_the_Rhymer]

@Trinopus

Too big a question, no concrete answers. Read the Bible, and you will have pretty much all the information that anyone, anywhere, ever, can offer you.

Various denominations of Christianity interpret scripture differently. There are Trinitarians and anti-Trinitarians. Some say Jesus was in hell while dead; others say he simply slept. Some say that the dead (like your great grandfather) are in heaven (or hell) now; others say they sleep dreamlessly until the day of resurrection and judgement. Theology is a million times too messy for us to give you quick and easy answers here.

(Me? I’m lobbying for Dante’s Divine Comedy to be accepted as Revealed Truth and added to the Bible. Y’figure?)

(bolding mine)

I feel obliged to be more specific there. I know of no Christian sect that claims Christ was condemned to Hell to be punished during the 36 hours or so that he was dead, but I know lots of people who say he was harrowing hell–that is, getting out the righteous dead who were there on a technicality, and preaching to damned souls to give them one last chance.

[si_blakely]

John 1

[sup]1[/sup] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. [sup]2[/sup] He was with God in the beginning. [sup]3[/sup] Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. [sup]4[/sup] In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. [sup]5[/sup] The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome[a] it.

[sup]6[/sup] There was a man sent from God whose name was John. [sup]7[/sup] He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all might believe. [sup]8[/sup] He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light.

[sup]9[/sup] The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. [sup]10[/sup] He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. [sup]11[/sup] He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. [sup]12[/sup] Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— [sup]13[/sup] children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

[sup]14[/sup] The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

The writer of the Gospel of John clearly equates Jesus (the logos or word of God made flesh) with God (and the word was God).

Paul makes the same claim …

Phillipians 2

[sup]5[/sup] In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:

[sup]6[/sup] Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
[sup]7[/sup] rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature** of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
[sup]8[/sup] And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!

[sup]9[/sup] Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
[sup]10[/sup] that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
[sup]11[/sup] and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

[moriah]

@Trinopus

Some say Jesus was in hell while dead…

He went to the realm of the dead, that is, in the Greek, ‘Hades.’ It’s basically saying ‘he died.’ But even if one were to imagine rather materialistically and time-boundedly, Jesus spending 3 days (more like 40 hours over the course of 3 day periods) waiting somewhere to be resurrected, it would not be like the current perception of ‘Hell’ as a place of punishment, but more akin to the Elysian Fields of Greek mythos, thus, the use of ‘Hades.’ Later Christian writing interpreted the ‘time spent there’ as his ‘preaching to the dead’ (all the other humans who’ve predeceased him and are spending time there) and then bringing salvation to the just (now they get to heaven). This is the ‘harrowing’ of ‘hell’ some speak about. ObligiWiki: Harrowing of Hell - Wikipedia
WRT the OP: Let me give you the abridged version…

The theology of the trinity does not come from Jesus saying, “Hey, guys, you know what? I’m pretty sure I’m God himself in the flesh.” It comes from post-resurrectional reflection of the Christian community trying to wrestle with the question: “Just who the heck was he?” And by ‘who’ they meant ‘in essence’, especially when they had to explain Jesus to the Hellenistic (i.e., Greek) culture that was proficient in philosophy. “He’s a god then? What only one God? Then he’s not a god. What? A ‘Son of God’, so then he is a god? Wait, what?”

This development in theology does comes a bit from Jesus who obviously made some sort of statements about he and ‘the Father’ were really close. Add to that:
[ol]
[li]He ‘preached with authority’, i.e., he didn’t quote from the Mosaic Law or the Jewish body of interpreting the Law, but simply said what God wanted, like the prophets did. And prophecy was dead (and outlawed) in Israel for a good half millennium at the time;[/li][li]He performed miracles: exorcising demons, healings, calming storms, walking on water, etc…;[/li][li]He forgave sinners… but only God can do that![/li][li]He rose from the dead;[/li][li]He imparted the Holy Spirit in the form of physical charismatic gifts.[/li][/ol]
And so, the early Church was assured of forgiveness of sins and salvation through their experience of Jesus or his Holy Spirit or the Good News preached about Jesus. But, only God can save. Therefore… OMG, Jesus is God!

That conclusion did not go unchallenged. Some in the community objected and said, well, he’s close to God, or a Son of God, but not God himself.

War ensued, and the trinitarians won.

ObligiWiki: Trinity - Wikipedia

[Trinopus]

@Skald_the_Rhymer

. . . I know of no Christian sect that claims Christ was condemned to Hell to be punished during the 36 hours or so that he was dead, but I know lots of people who say he was harrowing hell–that is, getting out the righteous dead who were there on a technicality, and preaching to damned souls to give them one last chance.

There are a few… Yes, definitely, the harrowing of hell is a traditional idea – Dante expresses it in the Divine Comedy. But some Christians say that Jesus suffered the equivalent of God’s full wrath, the same punishment that would accrue to billions of sinners.

However, I will confess that the bar is pretty doggone low here: saying, “There are some Christians who believe X” is true for very nearly any proposition X one might put forward.

(One of my very favorites is Preterism, the idea that all of the events foreseen have already come to pass. The Seventh Scroll was already unrolled. The destruction of the Temple by the Romans fulfills the prophecy. This version, at least, explains away the apparent contradiction of “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see that the kingdom of God has come with power.” In this version, some of them standing there did, in fact, see Judgement Day…back in 70 A.D.!)

[Little_Nemo]

Bart Ehrman, a noted theologian, wrote Lost Christianities: The Battles for Scripture and the Faiths We Never Knew which outlines the early debates among Christians over issues like the relationship between Judaism and Christianity, the nature of Jesus, the meaning of the Crucifixion, and the relationship between God and Jesus. It’s a really good book and I recommend it if you want to see some of the different views on these topics.

[Thudlow_Boink]

@Pushkin

Is there anywhere in the Bible or other texts that explains how Jesus and the Christian God are all part of the one entity, but that God and Jesus made a sacrifice through the crucifixion? God of his son (who was a part of him and he could take into heaven if he pleased) and Jesus of his life (which he knew wasn’t the same thing as his immortal soul).

Alas, for some values of “explains how” the answer is no, especially if you distinguish between claims that such things are true and explanations how they are true.

I’m inclined to agree with Trinopus:

@Trinopus

Too big a question, no concrete answers. Read the Bible, and you will have pretty much all the information that anyone, anywhere, ever, can offer you.

I suppose we could offer Bible cites that support (or at least could be interpreted to support) the things you mention. One that springs to mind is from Philippians, where IIRC many scholars believe Paul is quoting an older Christian hymn or creed:
[QUOTE=Philippians 2:5-11]
Christ Jesus,

who, though he was in the form of God,
did not regard equality with God
as something to be exploited,
but emptied himself,
taking the form of a slave,
being born in human likeness.
And being found in human form,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to the point of death—
even death on a cross.

Therefore God also highly exalted him
and gave him the name
that is above every name,
so that at the name of Jesus
every knee should bend,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
and every tongue should confess
that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
[/QUOTE]