The Crucifixion and the Resurrection

Great Debates
1

Reading Zoe’s thread, The human side of Jesus, brought this to the front of my mind.

Okay, this is something I’ve been questioning (to myself, vaguely) for a while about Jesus. About the crucifixion and resurrection. If he were not only the Son of God, but God Himself, what does the crucifixion mean in the context of the resurrection? Doesn’t the knowledge that he will be resurrected (because He is the resurrector), that he cannot, in fact, die kind of blunt the point of the whole crucifixion thing? Wouldn’t the tragedy of his agony and death be greater, the impact of his message of mercy (love) and his sacrifice for that message be greater if he were not aware that he would rise again? If he had carried this message while having no sure knowledge of a life or an existence of any kind beyond His death on the cross?

I seem to find a paradox here. If he were not the Son of God, and God Himself, he could not claim the authority to proclaim his message that God is love (mercy). And he would not (probably) have died on the cross. And yet that death itself, because of His sure and certain knowledge (being God) that he would still be beyond it, seems pale in the light of that knowledge. [sorry if this is very circular]

I understand that He was in human form, and subject to all that that implies. Yet, I ask again, wouldn’t this be more than balanced by the knowledge that he will die and rise? He speaks explicitly of this in Matthew 26, and, in fact, when Judas betrays him to the mob and a companion cuts an ear off a servant of the high priest, he tells the man: 52"Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, “for all who draw the sword will die by the sword.
53Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels?
54But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?”

He himself says right there that it happens because it must. Fine. But is there a paradox in this thing? Is this a question for the mystics?

In other words, does the truth (unbounded love and mercy) and the power of his message spring from contemplation of this (apparent?) paradox? Is the trouble I find in his knowing the key to his message?

2

… in his knowing death …

3

Um, what little I’ve been able to piece together on the answer to this often-asked question suggests that in the kenosis, the “putting off” of His Godhead and the emptying of divine knowledge to truly become human, He had no certitude of His Resurrection, but rather the faith that God would bring it off.

In which He differed in no way from the rest of us, who sail always into a dark future with only the light of hope…

4

Although you say that you realize He was in human form, and subject to all that that implies, you must consider what those implications are. Take care not to conlate Jesus the Brain and Jesus the Spirit.

Just as you are a dual being, formed of atoms and of spirit, so was Jesus. We all have within our hearts the living and eternal spirit given to us by God — a “piece” of Him, as it were. Each of us is essentially a spiritual being. (That which is essential is that which is eternal.)

And as such, each of us is a free moral agent. That is what is meant by being created in the image of God. He does not have arms and legs; rather, He is a spiritual Being. And it is our spiritual nature that is in His likeness.

Jesus was unique in this regard: the spirit that dwelled in Him was the very Spirit of God Himself. He therefore loved perfectly, even in the way that God loves. And He was morally perfect, just as God is.

But the brain and body of Jesus were no different than those of any man. He felt hunger, fear, and doubt just like any of us. His intellectual beliefs were just like ours — spiritually trivial but physically significant.

He did not “know” about His own divinity any more than we “know” about ours. He, as a man, had to trust God with the faith of a little child. Yes, His faith was enormous, but as He said Himself, He did nothing more than anyone else with faith could do.

With His holy and spotless spirit, all His moral decisions were loving and therefore good, because moral decisions are made by the spirit. But as He climbed the hill carrying His cross, He was no more intellectually certain of His eternal nature than we are of our own.

Consider His prayers in Gethsemani, asking His Father to remove this burden from Him if it be His will. And yet, in the end, finally saying, “Your will (the will of my spirit), and not mine (the will of my brain) be done.”

Therefore, His knowledge that He would die and rise was as uncertain as ours is that we will. He knew nothing more than you do. His ministry was a walk of faith.

5

See, guys, that does make a certain sense to me, and I do have some memory of Luke. It is that passage in Matthew, along with his foreknowledge of the betrayal by Judas and of the three denials or disownings by Peter which instigate this line of thought in me.

Hmmm, looks like a case of “Me think too deep, brain goes to sleep. Makes strawman.”

I do understand his humanity – how could a human form contain completely an infinite, unknowable mind? This is why the very asking if a paradox existed led me to the last questions of the OP. And while neither of you addressed those specifically, the reminder of Jesus’ utter humanity and utter faith do provide an answer. Thanks.

6

Fatwater

I’m not sure anyone can answer your last two questions but you. I don’t even understand what they mean. But you do, and they are important to you. We all have personal questions that, when we surrender, are answered.

God go with you in your private moral journey and your search for truth. :slight_smile:

7

Com’on, this is God we are talking about here. He makes the impossible possible. We are not talking about science or logic here. If you look at the Christian faith logicially, it is full of holes. So believers ask you not to think, just surrender your rational facilities. Sort of like poking your own eyes out, but a tad bit worse.

8

If there were a god, Urban Ranger, I’m pretty sure that trying to stuff himself completely into a human mind would not work out so well. There are limitations of form. It’d be kind of like trying to put the reactor of a nuclear sub into a VW Rabbit.

9

Speaking of logic, which Christian faith do you mean?

10

God is spirit, Fatwater, and therefore is neither spatial nor temporal.

11

Ahem.

In any event, it seems Jesus didn’t encompass God. He was seperate from the totality of the Divine, by taking on both sex and flesh. God did not simple use a human body as a mouthpeice, He became human. And that meant He knew all the doubt and fear and pain that we do. He may (and was) better equipped to deal with it than most, but nevertheless knew what it meant to be human because He had been human. In fact, he is human now even as He is God.

True. However, God also has established certain rules of the Universe, and breaks them (as is his right) neither lightly nor carelessly. He did thngs for a specific reason, and we satill don’t know whether or not Jesus had the full awareness of God. (My Answer: probably not).

Hence, Jesus had Faith that the Father would save him. Not because he went about talking to him all the time, but simply due to his faith. He trusted in His position in the universe. He didn’t want to die. Look at His own sayings: He asked quite specifically not to be killed. He knew it was going to hurt.

12

It looks to me like you’ve substantially restated what I already said. Scroll up to the fourth post in the thread.

13

That brings up, for me at least, the question of what, if any, delineation there is between mind and spirit. And where, if they are separate, that delineation is [probably unanswerable] … a topic for another thread someday, perhaps.

Anyway, Lib, I truly appreciate your words and wishes. Thank you.

14

–kenosis, the “putting off”–

What a fantasic idea! Obi Wan Kenosis! Think about it! :smiley:

And as for the OP–good question. But be careful you don’t think too hard. You’ll end up an existentialist. :wink:

15

You’re welcome.

The mind and the spirit are two different things. The mind is a manifestion of atoms; the spirit is a manifestion of God. The mind does what the spirit wills. Only intellectual decisions are made by the mind; moral decisions are made by the spirit.

16

Smiling Bandit, that is perhaps one of the best explanations of the Incarnation I have ever seen. May I quote it when I need to try to explain that concept?