If we agree that Judaism is a religion and not a race…then what does an atheist mean when he says he/she is Jewish?
Because it is a culture or a heritage most people will respond. But a swedish catholic is a swede by heritage, is he not? And if the swedish catholic is an atheist, is he still a catholic?
My parents were Jewish and we were all proud to be Jews even though none of us were at all religious.
But I am proud because of the great accomplishments Jews have contributed to mankind.
Even if it’s not a race, Judaism can have cultural dimensions which go beyond its purely religious aspect. Hence someone who rejects Jewish religious views can still identify with other aspects of Judaism and consider himself a Jew (and be considered a Jew by other Jews and by gentiles).
I think we can go there, but to do so we’re going to have to recognize race (or “genetic family” to avoid the controversial label) and cultural heritage as a little more than the mere social constructs they are assumed by many these days to be. At the least, certain atheists continue to recognize a facet of their identity which is essentially “Jewish” in character, however they arrive at that point.
To derive some amount of pride from the accomplishments of one’s closer brethren is probably natural. We probably ought to feel pride only in our own individual accomplishments, and that would be my philosophical stance. But in reality, people do feel pride in what their closer genetic ancestors accomplished, so I suppose it’s not completely unnatural for an atheist of jewish ancestry to take some pride in the perserverance of his ancestors against the butcherous trammels of their day, or like Walter from The Big Lebowski put it “3000 glorious years from Moses to Sandy Koufax, you’re goddamn right I’m livin’ in the past!”
No, he’s a Swede atheist. “Catholic” is not a ethnocultural identity independent of the religion (and in fact, being brought up in Swedish society would have you more likely exposed to Lutheran or atheist values). In a similar vein, a Saudi citizen who abandons Islam is still an Arab, though no longer a Muslim – even if Arab culture is thoroughly suffused with the values of Islam and the practice of Islam abounds in Arab traditional folk mores.
Or complicate it even more: Say Pat O’Neil, an Irish-American Catholic, becomes an Atheist. He does not stop being either of Irish heritage or American nationality. He just stops being catholic.
The thing is “Jewish” is really a descriptor of TWO things: one, a follower of a religion; the other, a person with a certain ethnocultural heritage. Here’s the deal: purportedly (in their own relation of origins) the “Tribes of Israel” including specifically the “Tribe of Judah” (hence Judaea, hence “Jews”) preexist the organized religion allegedly established by Moses, and the name we give to it. The religion becomes known in the Western languages as “Judaism” because it was the Judaeans’ religion, not the other way around.
Speaking as a diehard Jewish agnostic, I’d say this varies greatly from person to person. I may not be religiously observant, but I am damn proud both of my cultural heritage and the perseverance of my ancestors. Referring to myself as a Jew in cultural conexts is my way of honoring my culture and my ancestors. (Besides, if I didn’t, my grandmother would strangle me. She’s one crusty lady, but boo, can she cook!)
I’m not sure about that. I fit the description in the OP to a ‘T’. While raised a Jew and still self-identifying that way I’ve never been able to buy in to the religious aspects all the way.
But I still find myself culturally a Jew. When I first saw the cover of Newsweek back in 1992 with the Serbian concentration camps my first thought was ‘not again’. And I do often think ‘Is this good for the Jews?’ when faced with some decisions.
I consider my religion to be atheist. I consider my culture and ethnicity to be Jewish. Why that concept is so hard for some people to wrap their minds around is beyond me.
My wife and I are atheists. My wife is also Jewish. She doesn’t see any contradiction. It’s her ethnic and cultural background. Her great-grandparents all emigrated from the Odessa region. I suppose that she could say her ancestors were Russians, but that doesn’t really accurately describe her ethnicity.
a : the integrated pattern of human knowledge, belief, and behavior that depends upon man’s capacity for learning and transmitting knowledge to succeeding generations b : the customary beliefs, social forms, and material traits of a racial, religious, or social group c : the set of shared attitudes, values, goals, and practices that characterizes a company or corporation = one definition of culture.
When terms as Culture and Ethnicity are employed as in many opinions above, I believe it is wise to define our terms. My Jewish mother was from Poland. My Jewish father was from Odessa, Russia. There are Jews in just about every country in the world…Did their ancestors all originate from the the same area?
There are people of all nationalities and religions who believe in many of the ideals that Jews have. Jews have been persecuted throughout the ages…agreed…does that item alone make a culture or an ethnic group?
According to (capital T)radition, yes. If you’re a Jew, you can consider your bloodline to trace all the way back to the common Jewish root. That’s regardless of conversion, yours or your mother’s or anyone else’s.
Like hajario, I don’t understand why so many people seem incapable of accepting that Judaism is both a religion and a culture. You may not like it, you may not agree with it, but it doesn’t change the cultural identity of who we are.
Not always. The two major options as described by Dex (and I agree) are either you are an atheist but are acknowledging you were raised Jewish, or that you don’t believe in god but feel an attachment to Jewish culture. My Communist younger brother identifies as a Jew, although I’m not sure how that works out in his head.
The reason there’s room for confusion here is that Judaism is a pretty small religion (about 14 million people worldwide last I knew). There’s no debate regarding whether, say, Catholicism is race or ethnicity because there are too many Catholics.
Some Jews I know do use the race argument (others are very wary of it, I think because Hitler went from the assumption that Jews were a race). This argument assumes there are certain typically Jewish characteristics. Unfortunately, these phenotypes have nothing to do with Judaism, just the areas in which the Jews live. For example, Jews in Israel who are descended from Middle Eastern stock don’t really look any different from the Arabs who live there. The stereotypical American version of a Jewish guy looks just like a lot of Eastern Europeans, because that’s where most of America’s Jews came from.
That’s not quite fair. If you’re talking about really basic ideas, they’re common to almost every culture, yes. Judaism has some specific and unique traditions. The persecution issue is a big one to some, but that’s not the sole reason it’s a culture. I do think it furthers that perception in some ways- some Jewish people have a certain ‘we have to stick together’ attitude that is indeed related to the persecution Jews have dealt with throughout history.
Descent is irrelevant to one’s belief, and if you say you’re Jewish because you’re descended from Jews even if you don’t care about the religion, you do have some ground to stand on. So ultimately, I think if you say you’re Jewish (in whatever sense you mean it), then you are. And anyway, who’s going to argue with it?
And that’s the story of how my family ended up with (present tally) three Jews, one atheist Jew, and one atheist non-Jew.
I thought of something. Maybe this will help clear up the issue.
I would say that it is fair to characterize a person by three traits - Nationality, Religion (or lack of) and Cultural Background (I’m leaving race out for the moment, but the argument I will present can be expanded to encompass it and other traits as well)
So, Joe Average maybe an American (nationality) Catholic (religion) of Irish (cultural) decent. Or Jane Doe may be an American Lutheran of Swedish descent.
Or David Cohen may be an American Jew of Jewish descent… or an American Atheist of Jewish descent… or even an American Jew of Irish descent…
As I am an Israeli Atheist of Jewish descent… and the guy who did officer training with me, way back when, is an Israeli Druze of Druze descent - so you see, Jews aren’t the only people where Religion and Culture are separate, but identically named, reulting in overall confusion.
So to recap - There are two completely different meanings of the word “Jew” - religious and cultural. And clearly you CAN have one without the other…
