Why was it moved to the Pitand not just shut down for obviously being in the wrong forum and being distinctly trollish as well?
More importantly, why wasn’t the OP at the very least mod-noted? It’s not like he’s some n00b with no idea of what forum’s for what. He’s been here since 2001!
This creates 2 bad impressions: that you can get away with being somewhat trollish and rantish in GD without so much as a slap on the wrist, and also that the Pit is some kind of dumping ground rather than an entity in its own right.
With all the current discussions on upping the standards of debate, and also what is desired Pit etiquette, I find stuff like this very puzzling, and more than a little disappointing. It’s like you’re just letting us talk to talk, and banning some soft targets, but the talk about what’s *fundamentally *wrong with GD has just skipped by you.
I think ANY post where a person merely links to a video or article or blog without his/her own summary and thoughts ought to be modded. I’m not going to watch a random 30-minute video or try to negotiate the NYT firewall on the off chance I might understand your point. USE YOUR WORDS!
I think the thread in question here would have been just fine if the OP would have made his/her own case. Surely there are aspects of the Impeachment Hearings that are ripe for discussion or rants.
Eh, while I dislike OPs that are just a link and ‘How about it’ and it’s certainly not best practices, sometimes a real debate develops before a mod - in this case me - can get to it.
In this case, I elected to send it to the Pit to allow posters to toy with it. It’s a long-established tradition and happens occasionally. Based on the replies the topic got, it seemed posters were already having fun with it so why not? Given it had 12 replies before I got there - an hour and twenty-four minutes following the OP - and almost 100 since I moved it I’d say fun is being achieved. Heck, based on comment #4 in this thread it’s fun for posters to do so.
Now, let me make something clear to all who read this:
Someone disagreeing with you doesn’t make them a troll.
You disagreeing with someone doesn’t make them a troll.
You disLIKING someone doesn’t mean they should be sanctioned.
Everyone - even you, Dibble - should learn to accept that fact. Posters will not be quieted just because other say they should. Threads will not be truncated because you think they have no value.
To go down that road is a path to madness. If a moderator decided EasyPhil’s thread had no value it would be just as easy to decided that your next thread had no value and shut it down. Or anyone’s next thread.
What you appear to define as a problem, I’d call a feature.
Velocity brought this up a few months ago, but I’m against the idea of having threads moved to the pit unless you catch it within the first couple of posts.
Participants made their posts under a different set of expectations, but by moving the thread to the Pit you have exposed them to Pit rules. True, someone can insult me or anybody at any time in the Pit. But usually I don’t get a notification when a Pit thread is updated. From the User CP you can’t tell which forum a thread belongs to, and with the unread post feature being spotty the first post that comes up may very well be offensive.
(ETA: while I’m against such moves, it isn’t really a big deal either - just unsubscribe from the thread)
Seconded. I also think making an original post in GD that relies entirely on external sources (esp. lengthy ones, without relevant page numbers) to make the argument should be disallowed.
ETA: If he had simply asked whether Mr. Schiff lied, should that be acceptable? I think so, unless there’s a pattern of starting such threads and then merely linking to arguments in lengthy external sources.
Trollish? Maybe; I would say not. Just a combination of badly thought out and/or intoxicated posting.
As for the move to the Pit – it is freaking awesome there! So far its one of the better reads I’ve had in that forum in weeks. I think this is more a case where the Mods made just the right call -------- and maybe had a little luck as well.
That’s not why I said their OP was trollish. They weren’t even slightly on my radar as a poster before that thread.
So you think that OP wasn’t calculated to get a rise out of people?
I have a very active Pit thread that says different. The “value” in that thread is the delight people have been getting in ripping into the OP. Your very argument for moving, rather than closing, is the same argument for why it was trollish.
That happens all the damn time (not to me, though). Don’t pretend thread closings are some once-a-year event. And that “It’d be a pity if something were to happen to one of *your *threads…” wannabe-Mafia play is truly pathetic. Did you think that was a good look?
Or that everyone can’t tell an obvious troll and see your tolerance for same.
Close the trolling threads in GD, sanction the posters who make them, and GD will improve.
Or carry on exactly as you’ve been doing for years, I don’t really care. Seems all the good debate is in the Pit now, anyway.
I want to get back to this slippery slope bullshit argument.
You’re essentially saying “First they came for the Trolls…” and are inwardly hoping everyone reads “Jews” for “Trolls” and follows on with the classic rest of it in their head:
“Then they came for the slightly abrasive posters, and I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t an abrasive poster. And then they came for the crap pun-makers, and I didn’t speak up, because my puns are actually funny*. And when they came for me, there was nobody to object…”.
But actually, we’re all thinking “First they came for the Nazis…and everyone rejoiced because Nazis are scum, life was better without them, and Germany regained its dignity and became a lovely place to visit. The end”
That you think you’re evoking the former, and that we’re afraid of you going after actual, obvious trolls, shows how out of touch you are with the mood of GD.
Right. The slippery-slope argument depends on us thinking that moderators have terrible judgment. “If we exercise judgment to close a terrible thread now, maybe tomorrow we’ll exercise judgment to close a good thread.” Yeah, only if your judgment is bad. If you’re able to tell a good thread idea from a bad thread idea, that won’t happen.
Ironically, offering that argument makes me question your judgment, so maybe it’s a good argument.
[ul]
[li]We already know this. [/li][li]Those are not our positions. [/li][li]Strawmanning is not a useful or convincing technique. [/li][/ul]
At no point has MrDibble or anyone else here ever argued any of the positions you have stated. Thus, by coming out against a positions none of us actually hold, you are committing the classic strawman fallacy.
MrDibble, along with most of us, has spent a long time explaining what he means by trolling, and what stuff needs to be dealt with. Heck, a lot of it came out in those threads where you noticed problems with GD and admirably asked for help.
Was it all for naught? Did you not read it after asking for help? Did you read it but assume we were lying and really meant that we just want to get rid of people we don’t like? If not, it sure feels that way sometimes.
Another thing about strawmen is that that they are insulting to the intelligence of the people you use them against. To act as if we believe these obviously idiotic things comes off as if you think we are idiots. And if the way you talk to us makes us feel insulted, that only precipitates hostility and incivility–that thing you admit is a problem right now.
Surely we all know that having moderators who are well liked and respected by the community helps things move more smoothly. The best way to get that respect is to give it out. Sure, you can’t always be agreeable. But you can at least show us respect, even when you disagree. You can at least treat us like fellow adults rather than children you need to lecture.
It’s been done before. The misogyny threads were not dismissed. The women weren’t told why they were wrong or accused of saying things they didn’t say. You listened to people’s concerns, and the board is better now because of this. That there are enough women who feel empowered to speak up is an improvement! (And apologies if people forget this at times.)
Sigh. I know I can go on and on, and I often feel like, the longer my post, the less people pay any attention to it. But I feel so passionately about this and see every part as important, so I can’t cut this. All I can do is end with a plea.
Please remember we also care about this board. We want it to be the best i can be. We also are intelligent adults with life experience and knowledge that can inform and make for a better future. I know that the moderator position is often antagonistic, dealing with troublemakers. But don’t forget we’re all in this together.
And I hope this is received in the spirit of helpfulness that I intend.
I agree here with Max. Posts should never, ever be moved to the pit. Close them or no, there is no Pit option. Posters have been saying this for quite some time.
And yes, that OP post should have just been closed.
That OP wasn’t trolling. It was a rant (thus, indeed, you were right in that fact it didnt belong in GD and should be closed. It would have been trolling only if the Op didnt agree with the premise and only posted it to get a rise. You can make a lot of posts to “get a rise” out of your fellow posters without being a troll. I do it, YOU do it. In fact your Op here appears to be a attempt to “get a rise” . But you sincerely believe it, thus it’s not trolling.
“You Keep Using That Word, I Do Not Think It Means What You Think It Means”
“Most of us”? :dubious: Speak for *yourself *buddy, not for 'most of us" . You’re not speaking for me. “When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.” “The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.” “The question is,” said Humpty Dumpty, “which is to be master—that’s all.”
It’s nice that you may think that a rant is trolling. It’s not. It’s…* a rant*. That’s not trolling. Now sure, rants dont belong in GD, so that thread should have been closed. (*not *moved to the Pit, even tho rants do belong in the Pit). The Pit has plenty of rants.
I will concur that a Note would be been correct “OP, GD is not the proper place for threads of this sort, this appears more of a rant, which belong in the BBQ Pit”. That thread would have been fine if the Op had started it in the Pit. (well, I disagree completely with the opinion there, but thats neither here nor there)
