An honest tragedy, and a request for advice for someone affected (long)

Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
1

I apologize for the length of this in advance. I’m a bit lost on where to turn to for help, and I’d rather not burden the SDMB with this, but I don’t know where to turn.

About ten years ago, when my parents moved to the city in PA where my dad still lives, the first people they met were their next-door neighbors Paul and Mary (not their real names). Paul was the pastor and leader of a small interdenominational church, and since my folks were new in town and were looking for a place to go to church, Paul invited them to attend. My parents liked the church and became good friends with Paul and Mary. My parents and Paul and Mary remained friends as the years went on and as the small church grew and as Paul and Mary’s children grew up and went to college.

Eight years ago, my mom was diagnosed with liver cancer. Paul and Mary were always there for her. I got to know Paul fairly well during those times. When things were really bad for my mom, Mary especially was there just about every day. My mom survived for five years despite a very grim diagnosis, and when I was taking care of my mom during her last few months, Paul and Mary were stopping by several times a day. After mom passed away, Paul and Mary were still talking to my dad just about every day to support him. I don’t know how well my dad would have fared without them.

While all this was going on, everything seemed to be going well for Paul and Mary. The church was expanding, and plans were afoot to move to a new and larger facility. The family planned to move into a new house that was being built near where the new church was going up. Paul was still leading the church, Mary was leading the music section, and everything seemed great.

Then starting last year everything came to a screeching halt. The church finances turned out to be not doing as well as Paul thought, and work on the new church stopped. He put his old house (the one next door to my dad’s house) up for sale to finance his new house, but with the housing market collapse and several other nearby houses for sale, it didn’t sell, and in fact it remains unsold. Now Paul was trying to pay two mortgages while having to cut his own “salary” almost to nothing, and the money he’d made in his previous career as a stockbroker was running out fast. Mary took on a job as a substitute teacher, but there wasn’t much money there. To make a little more money, they rented out their old house to a needy family from the church, and that was a disaster: the family trashed the inside of the place, stole several appliances, and essentially left the house uninhabitable. My dad is fairly handy at home repair and offered Paul free help, but he admitted to me that some of the damage might be beyond him.

Last month I visited my dad for a long weekend, and he had some shocking news. Out of the blue, Paul admitted to a string of affairs with some of the married women in his church. The rest of the church elders got together and essentially kicked him out of his own church. The next day, Dad saw Mary at the old house pacing around and looking agitated. She told him that she was contemplating a divorce but “I’m going to see what happens after he gets out of the hospital.” Apparently after Paul had been kicked out of the church he went to a back room and attempted suicide. He stayed in the hospital for a few days before being sent home.

So last week Dad was home and he saw Paul’s car pull up to the house next door. Paul was a complete wreck, ranting about “having a million things to do with the house.” Dad offered help again, but Paul was all but out of it, saying that “nobody ever helps me with things I need” and breaking down a few times. Unfortunately, Dad had to travel the next day on a business trip to the UK, and he told Paul that after he got back he would get help for Paul and help him with the house and getting his life back together. Paul said he would be OK, and that he had someone he could stay with for a week, and he promised that when my dad got back they could work on the house over Memorial Day weekend.

Well, Dad got back from the UK on Friday and there was a message on his answering machine from another friend to call him immediately. Two days after Dad left for the UK, Mary came back to the old house to pick up some things and found Paul dead in the garage.

My dad is not a very emotional person but I can tell this is tearing him up. Paul and Mary were always there for him and now he feels like he wasn’t there for Paul. I’ve been on the phone with Dad every day, I know everyone else he knows has been telling him the same thing, that it wasn’t his fault, but I know that has to be a small comfort to him.

I want so much to help him, but I’m just lost for words right now for him. I’m pretty stunned all this happened too. And, not go into detail about it, but I made an unwise decision with some medication, and I’ve been extremely frazzled the last two weeks.

I’m seeing Dad again for a planned trip in two weeks, and, if anybody has any advice for what I can say or who I can turn to, I’d be most grateful. Just thinking about this is a lot to handle.

2

I really don’t have any advice to give you but you and your poor dad have all of my compassion.

Quite honestly there was nothing your dad could have done for him and nothing to stop his course of action.

Paul is no longer suffering, thats what you’ve got to think.

3

All you can do for your dad is to be there and to listen to him if he wants to talk. That’s what’s always meant the most to me when I’m dealing with the death of someone important to me.

My best to your dad and to you during this difficult time.

4

In my admittedly limited experience with suicides, some people are just going to do it no matter what, and you can’t stop them short of a straitjacket.

All you can do is make the offers, like your Dad did.

5

The only way anyone could have helped Paul is if he’d been as upfront and timely with his acknowledgment there was a problem as his parishoners had been with him. He wasn’t.

I’m really sorry you and your Dad are being put through this but Paul himself put in motion the things that could end only in a bad way.

6

What an awful position to be in. I can understand your Dad feeling like that after the help that was given to him and your Mom in a difficult time.

On the one hand it is the business of a pastor (and often wife) to comfort the sick and dying. I don’t say that to minimize the comfort your family felt from good neighbours or the sense of debt and gratitude felt.

There may not be a way for your Dad to shake his sense of guilt and all logic and platitude won’t help. Rather than trying to find the right words that help him stop feeling this way, perhaps there is an action he can take that would help.

Maybe he can still try to help Mary and her family through helping to get the house ready for market. Perhaps there is a small scholarship that he could start in Paul’s name. Perhaps even a donation to the hospital’s crisis centre or some such would help a bit.

I have had cause to feel responsible for not doing something I felt I should and having to live with dire consequence. The only way to get past the feeling was to do something meaningful in the person’s name that honoured them when they were at their best.

Best of luck with your Dad -

7

Your father did the best he could – he offered what he could do to help in many ways. He has no reason to feel guilty for what has transpired – he could not have kept it from happening.

Paul made his choices all the way. It is a common thing for people in the helping professions to be quite lousy at accepting any help for themselves, even when they desperately need it. This is why ministers often fail to get the counseling and pastoral care they need in times of crisis. (It’s why doctors and nurses make bad patients.)

What your father can do now is to lend a hand to help Mary as she will allow, to be a friend to her at a time when she probably doesn’t have a lot of friends.

The church community will need healing as well and perhaps they can all find it together with help from members like your Dad.

My condolences to all who grieve.

8

At this point, maybe you dad could contact Mary and offer her any help that is needed—She sounds like she has been thru more than anyone in this sad situation (except for your father of course, in losing his wife to cancer) and may well need a shoulder to cry on…

BTW Duke, you sound like a great son, doing what you can for your parents. keep your head up, and good luck for you and your fathers future.

9

What everyone has said already - I had to learn a lesson about not carrying burdens that weren’t mine, and your dad has to learn that lesson, too. He wasn’t responsible for Paul’s bad decisions, and he wasn’t responsible for Paul’s death. Your father helping Mary might do a lot to assuage his feeling of guilt for not being there for Paul. I’d say your role is to try to give him this message, and be there for him, too, as he struggles with his loss and grief and guilt.

10

Encourage your dad to talk out his feelings. Suicide isn’t the same as losing someone to illness or accident. There’s guilt and anger tied up with all the other feelings of loss. Encourage him to stay busy too.

When my son died, I took care of his wife. (They had a suicide pact, she survived, barely) I think that was the only thing that kept me from doing something foolish, myself.

She and I shared our grief. While it sounds lame and hackneyed, it’s true that sharing a burden lessens it.

11

What a gut-wrenching story. While it’s easy for us outside observers to see that none of it was your Dad’s fault and that he could not have prevented Paul’s death, I can also understand his inability to accept that conclusion. In addition, the loss of his longtime spouse is still relatively recent, which can only serve to complicate this already complicated situation.

I think this might be a job for a professional. Encourage him to ask his doctor to refer a good counselor who might be able to help him work through all this (a task that’s likely beyond you and some internet strangers).

Good luck to you both. You and your Dad sound like good folks.

12

Lots of good advice here, especially helping Mary. Something else that might help your dad is to do what he can to rehabilitate Paul’s memory. Yeah, it’s part of a pastor’s job to help parishioners, but it sounds like Paul and his wife went above and beyond. It’s sad that people will probably remember the scandal and the suicide and forget that he also did good work. If dad hears someone talking smack about Paul, he can share the positive impact Paul had on people.

13

Your dad might want to talk to someone who works with survivors of suicide (not suicidal people who survived, people who knew a person who committed suicide and are suffering because of it.) If there’s a local suicide prevention hotline or group in your area, they might have information about local support groups for those who’ve lost a friend to suicide. His doctor probably knows people in the area who work with suicide survivors. He could provide referrals too.

Here’s links to some online resources he (and you) might find helpful:

American Foundation for Suicide Prevention: Surviving Suicide Loss

American Association of Suicidology

They also have a list of support groups divide by state:
http://www.suicidology.org/web/guest/support-group-directory

Survivors of friends or relatives who kill themselves often suffer intense grief and guilt. I hope you dad finds the help he needs to learn that he’s not alone and it’s not his fault.

14

I work on an Inpatient Psychiatry ward.

Please believe the folks here who are saying that when Paul made his decision, it was not Mary’s fault or your Dad’s fault or anybody’s fault. Your Dad needs to hear this, over and over.

Paul was not, as appearances originally suggested, a man at peace with himself. He betrayed his congregation; he betrayed his family; he betrayed his friends. When your Dad went over to talk / help the guy, Paul blamed others for his predicament. Faced with
the results of his unhealthy choices, Paul could not live with himself.

Although Paul put on a good face, he was not the man everyone thought he was. For this, for simply being one of the many people Paul presented the false face to, your Dad has no legitimate basis for guilt.

Rather, sit with him, as has been suggested, and talk about the feelings of betrayal.
Guilt is a “better” emotion than “anger”, some think. Or, if Dad isn’t a chatty man, talk to him about your anger. Try to forgive Paul his frailties, and trudge on.

an seanchai

15

Thanks for all the advice here. There is so much to take in, and so much to figure out right now.

I’m still talking to Dad every night for the time being. He says that he hasn’t been able to talk to Mary himself for the last few days, and obviously she has much to deal with right now. I’m also going to try to get hold of a mutual friend of my dad and Paul (another neighbor), as he may have some good advice as well.

This is all somewhat hard on a personal level for me to handle as well. I attempted suicide as a teenager (my dad knows about that), and my first marriage broke up as a result of my ex having an affair (my dad doesn’t know about that), so those issues aren’t easy for me. And my run of “annoying problems to deal with” continues–my car broke down yesterday, and I essentially didn’t make it home to call Dad until close to 10–and I can handle those things but they’re an unwelcome distraction. So thanks again to everyone here: you’ve helped so much to lighten this load on me and hopefully for him as well.

16

Get your dad a copy of Judy Collins’s book Sanity & Grace. It is one of the best books for people dealing with suicides. Collins wrote it after the suicide of her only child Clark

17

I’m not sure exactly what your dad thinks he could have done differently. And I suspect that as time passes, he will realize as much.

In my opinion, Paul sounds like - at best - quite a fuck-up and, more likely, a slimeball. Sure, I guess even fuck-ups and slimeballs could benefit from supportive friends, but I personally feel no guilt over feeling little sorrow for people who dig their own graves.

18

I survived the suicide of a brother who lived in the same city as I. My deranged siblings were quick to blame me, for not seeing something, doing more, being aware. It was all too easy to blame myself, in the same way. Shouldn’t I have seen something? Been more alert?

The suicide of someone you love, someone who’s been there for you, in the past, is devastating, on so many levels. It is our first instinct to look for ways that we failed this person.

I was already blaming myself, when my siblings went to work on me. Already close to freaking out, it was more than I could bear. Yes, he was also their brother, but he wasn’t part of their daily lives like he was mine. My world was shattered and I was too fragile to deal with their bullshit, to be honest.

I was fortunate to have a spouse willing to run interference for me, but there was no escaping as the family descended on my city and my house. I was, understandably, a big ol’ hot mess.

Someone said something to me that really helped me get perspective, about my feeling that I’d failed him. They basically said that, if, with my support, he had finally turned his life around, found his footing, began to thrive, and succeeded in finding his way to happiness, as we had all eternally hoped, I would not have dreamed of taking the credit. I’d have put that on him. I’d have been proud and amazed and it would have been obvious to me that it was to his credit that he’d risen up beyond his difficulties.

And, of course, the inverse in also true. This was his doing, not mine. Taking it on as my failing was the same hubris as taking credit for his achievements would have been.

Everyone is different, of course, but this helped me at a time when I really needed to get some perspective.

I feel for your Dad, surviving the suicide of someone you love is one of life’s most cruel experiences. He has my deepest sympathy, as do you. Good Luck to you both!

19

elbows Thank you so much for this perspective

My brother is going through a very tough time right now, with very low lows. I have wrestled with what my feelings will be if he carries through with hurting himself - I will rely on that very sound perspective . . . all we can do is try to help. . . it’s up to the other person to succeed or not.

20

I want to thank everyone again for the advice for my dad. I’m afraid I’m going to be needing it myself soon. To be honest and I don’t want to burden anyone with the details but my own life is falling apart at an extremely rapid rate and I am getting more and more frightened that I am going to end up like Paul. I am not having an affair or any financial problems but I am having desperate times at work and home right now. I really have no support base and have not had one for a long time, and I don’t see that changing any time soon. So, the places for help suggested here might be the only things I’ve got right now. Again I don’t want to go into what’s going wrong but honestly I feel about myself a lot of what Dinsdale said about Paul, which TBH is why I don’t have any support base now.