An hour and a half left before he dies, and we live

Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
41

It was not my point to indicate that punishment should only be carried out to the satisfaction of the victims. That, of course, is why we HAVE a justice system…so that punishment is handed out in a rational way, with pre-determined punishments available for each crime.

Of course, were you to deal face-to-face with a crime victim, the issue of how they felt about the perp’s punishment might affect you differently. Unfortunately, this issue made me re-consider those I’d dealt with. And to consider whether this did ANY of us any good. I don’t believe “justice” exists as we ordinarily define it.

42

Airman Doors (USAF) said:

Airman, I too live in a democracy (not the US). I’ve nothing against the US. I happen to like much of what it is and appears to stand for. Today, however, I also happen to be glad that I live in the country I do (which, I’m sure you’ll have realised by now, does not have capital punishment).

I’m not trying to argue for argument’s sake, but your statement :

is beyond me. By your argument, everything which does exist should exist, and its justification is it’s own existence. I don’t know where to begin with the refutation, but heaven alone knows I’ve got quite a choice.

43

Sheeit. It’s its. Its. Its. Not It’s. Feh.

44

I think my biggest issue with McVeigh’s death is that there was no remorse on his part. I didn’t want to see him die while he was proudly feeling justified in what he did. I wanted him to be stricken with remorse. Sad, crying, something. Now he’s gone, unrepentant, and there is a part of me that would have preferred he live, in sorrow. There was no sorrow and that’s what makes me feel, I don’t know, not content?

45

Just one small point, but don’t the vast majority of democratic countries feel otherwise? Capital punishment, IMHO, is not about ‘justice’ or ‘closure’ it is about vengance.

46

from here

  1. Retentionist

Countries which retain the death penalty for ordinary crimes

AFGHANISTAN, ALGERIA, ANTIGUA AND BARBUDA, ARMENIA, BAHAMAS, BAHRAIN, BANGLADESH, BARBADOS, BELARUS, BELIZE, BENIN, BOTSWANA, BURUNDI, CAMEROON, CHAD, CHINA, COMOROS, CONGO (Democratic Republic), CUBA, DOMINICA, EGYPT, EQUATORIAL GUINEA, ERITREA, ETHIOPIA, GABON, GHANA, GUATEMALA, GUINEA, GUYANA, INDIA, INDONESIA, IRAN, IRAQ, JAMAICA, JAPAN, JORDAN, KAZAKSTAN, KENYA, KUWAIT, KYRGYZSTAN, LAOS, LEBANON, LESOTHO, LIBERIA, LIBYA, MALAWI, MALAYSIA, MAURITANIA, MONGOLIA, MOROCCO, MYANMAR, NIGERIA, NORTH KOREA, OMAN, PAKISTAN, PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY, PHILIPPINES, QATAR, RUSSIAN FEDERATION, RWANDA, SAINT CHRISTOPHER & NEVIS, SAINT LUCIA, SAINT VINCENT & GRENADINES, SAUDI ARABIA, SIERRA LEONE, SINGAPORE, SOMALIA, SOUTH KOREA, SUDAN, SWAZILAND, SYRIA, TAIWAN, TAJIKISTAN, TANZANIA, THAILAND, TRINIDAD AND TOBAGO, TUNISIA, UGANDA, UNITED ARAB EMIRATES, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, UZBEKISTAN, VIET NAM, YEMEN, YUGOSLAVIA (Federal Republic), ZAMBIA, ZIMBABWE

I’ll leave it to others to determine if they’re democratic or not… (the site also has the list of those who have aboloished the death penalty)

47

One suggestion I heard that I rather liked, was that rather than execute him, he could be made to listen to a list of the victims names over and over, 24-7. He should have at least been made to hear it in the last few minutes before he died.

Chris W

48

Not that I agree, but even if that were true, what’s wrong with vengeance? Maybe it’s appropriate to consider vengeance in the form of dispassionate retribution on behalf of society as a whole.

A sentence handed down by Judge Roy Bean in the old west:

A lot of Americans would probably apply the sentiments of the last paragraph to McVeigh as well.

You know, here in America, we never had Robespierre. We never had Hitler. We never had Franco or Mussolini. Given Europe’s track record for abuse of state power, I heartily agree that the ultimate penalty should be placed out of reach of any more dictators that might come along over there. But for European politicians to preach to the US that our own lawful statutes are barbaric, given the old world’s historical depths of barbarism, strikes me as a bit hypocritical.

And I’m not saying that I like the death penalty or that I’m leaping to its defense. I’m just pointing out that France was cutting off heads less than a quarter-century ago, and that “public opinion on capital punishment in Europe is not markedly different from that in the United States” and that “in Britain and central Europe, some opinion polls still register majority backing for the death penalty”.

49

McVeigh’s death doesn’t affect me at all.

When I heard that he had been executed, I said “Oh, was that today? I thought it was later in the week.”

Then I went on about my business, musing philosophically to myself about how his punishment was right and just. And from time to time, I would think of his family, and hoped that they would be able to bear the burden that their son thrust upon them.

Nope. Didn’t affect me at all.

I wondered how the familes of those killed in the explosions were feeling, and I hoped this brought closure to the ones that hadn’t found it yet. I thought of my friend Arden Ranger, and spoke a word to my Goddess for her.

It didn’t affect me one little bit.

I wondered a lot about what the folks here were saying, and if anyone else here was as unaffected as me, if anyone else could possibly give less of a damn than I gave.

Then my work day was over. My husband was waiting for me in the parking lot. My kids were in the back seat. Situation normal–except for the fact that I had spent the entire day being affected by something that I thought hadn’t affected me.

That disturbs me. It makes me wonder if McVeigh is getting out of me what he wanted. He wanted to be noticed. He wanted to make a statement. And I heard it. He got me to think about him. He got me think about what purpose his death is going to serve. He got me to think about my stance on the death penalty.

I’m not changing my mind on anything. I still think his sentence was right, even though it was what he wanted. Keeping him alive would serve no real purpose. He’d just sit in jail on my dime, for the rest of his life. Maybe someday he’d feel remorse, but by the time that moment rolled around, what purpose would that serve? There really was no hope for him. I suppose he could have been reformed, but then what? Release him? He’d never have made it past the gates before someone else delivered the death sentence on him.

Nothing about this is making me feel anything really positive, except that most folks recognize that he is most certainly not a hero or a martyr right now. He’s just the most recent OKC bombing-related death.

50

In regards to the OP, I thought it was incredibly strange to be waiting for someone to die. I got into my car to go to work right at 7:00 am CDT. I listened to the news reports for the whole hour-long drive to work.

I’m not good at explaining stuff like this, so bear with me (or skip past my post, if you prefer). I am opposed to the death penalty. I don’t want to start a debate, and I would rather not go into every reason I have for my stance here. I’ve thought a lot about my beliefs today. It’s sick people like McVeigh that make me question whether my beliefs are right. I guess there isn’t always necessarily a right or a wrong for everything. I believe what I believe, and I respect and understand the reasoning of those that disagree with me.
I really thought I would feel bad and ashamed that an execution was carried out this morning. But I really don’t. Right now, I am just glad it’s over. I am disgusted at the fact that McVeigh’s name will be remembered by the public long after the victim’s names are forgotten. I am sickened by the fact that he will be seen by others like him as a martyr to their cause. And I pray that the families and friends of the victims can find some peace.

I have extremely strong convictions. I am very secure in my beliefs. But I’m almost ashamed of myself right now for being opposed to the death sentence, even for sick freaks like that.

See why you hardly ever see me in GD? Sorry if that didn’t make much sense, but I’m very emotional about this subject, and I rarely make sense when I’m this upset. But I’m grateful for having a place to vent.

51

In my case, I’m GLAD he’s dead. It just means one less nutcase that coulsd possibly hurt MYkids. As for all the anti death penalty people out there, wait until you actually see someone die horribly due to a terrorist act as I did in Saudi Arabia when the Khobar Towers were attacked and then come see me.

52

Ten words uttered by my eleven year old daughter this morning have turned my world upside down.

“Now I don’t have to worry about Timothy McVeigh anymore.”

I called her near the end of a rather uneventful twelve hour shift at work. The boredom through the night had offered me opportunity to reflect upon the upcoming execution and the supreme value of life. Me, the guy that shoos flies out of an open window rather than swat them; the guy that gently picks up spiders that have wandered into the house and deposits them outside. The one that thought life, above all else, is to be respected. I had listened to the radio coverage of the execution, and phoned her once things were beginning to settle down. She told me that she had seen the warden announce McVeigh’s death on television, and then spoke those ten words.

You’d think that, if anyone, I’d be the one in my family who would be expressing those thoughts. After all, I was about a mile away from ground zero that morning in 1995. As I was leaving work, I felt the concussion of the blast, and looked in the rear view mirror to see a mushroom cloud rising over the heart of my adopted home town. Right where I’d been about five minutes earlier.

Now I find out that the emotional impact I suffered is a pittance compared to what she’s gone through. She’d asked pointed questions about McVeigh in the past, and I’d attempted to discuss the bombing, trial, and sentencing with her in as frank a manner as I could. Unfortunately, she was only five at the time and was unable to fully comprehend what had happened. I know I couldn’t. All she knew is that he was he was evil incarnate – the devil, space aliens, and the big bad wolf all rolled into one. He was real, and he had killed children.

Now I’m having darker thoughts about the value of life. The person I love most has been silently suffering in fear for years, and I didn’t know it. Her pain has been somewhat lessened by the execution of her nemesis. Mine has just begun.

53

Thank you, Persephone. This has been an emotionally draining day for me, as I mentioned in the BBQ Pit thread here, and that meant a lot to me

When I finally finished with vigils and gatherings, I read through the McVeigh threads and was hesitant to post to any of them because they all had turned into pro and con debates for the death penalty.

That’s not what this is about.

It’s also not about closure, which has been pointed out several times, is an overused word. One of the survivors on the radio this morning said, “Closure is where other people think I should be. I would just be content if I could walk again.”

From the Daily Oklahoman article:

That’s what it’s about to most people around here. Silence. A sense of peace.

This was a somber and emotionally draining day in Oklahoma. We’re relieved it’s over. But it will never be forgotten.

54

I no more buy into the anti-capital punishment arguments than I buy into the notion that I have no right to defend my own life or the lives of those I care about with lethal force if need be. I am glad we have the death penalty in this country, and I’m glad that we still have the will to use it on the likes of Timothy McVeigh. I’m just sorry that the son of a bitch wasn’t an abortion.

This is one of the times I regret not believeing in Hell, because it would be pleasing to think he was burning as I write.

55

All I’m going to say is it took them long enough to fry him.

No, thats not all I’m going to say either.

Mcveigh, got what he deserved. The bombing was an act of terroism on YOUR country. The only thing I haven’t been able to understand throughout this whole thing is how can anyone who lives in the U.S., be sorrowful for him. Even if it didn’t directly affect you, meaning you didn’t know any of the victims, the 168 were people.

People just like you and I, and he took their lives, their dreams, their futures, their families loved ones. So you better be sure he deserved to die, dying was probably the second best thing that could’ve happenned to him. The best thing for him would have been for the police to take him back to the memorial site tied him to a phone pole or something and then let the people of Oklahoma handle the execution.
Or even better, dupiclicated the bomb he made, put in the back of the same kinda truck he used, and park it out in an open field. While locking him in the cab of the truck, place portriat size photos of all the men, women, and children who’s lives were taken on the day that no one will ever forget.
Not a bad idea, that would’ve been how I would’ve choosen to execute him.

56

Sorry this took so long, it’s been a busy day and this is the first time I’ve had to poke in here and reply…

Zara, no offense at all is taken by your post, but I want to respond:

I did not mean to imply apathy, but rather a dazed, overwhelmed feeling.

I am honestly not sure how I feel about executions (unless there are none currently pending, in which case I’m all for it… in theory! <--------- joke!).

This is intimately tied in with my current struggles with religion. I do believe that there is some higher purpose/power in the universe, but I am, so far, unconvinced by the “mainstream” religions (though I waver on this day to day). Call it “God” if you will, just for this conversation, and for ease of communication. My thinking process (so far) is thus:

If there is a “God” (remember that my definition of this is rather loose right now), then life is something created by “God”. OK, fine. Now, if “God” created life, then he must have wanted it to be. So far, no problem! However, we humans have taken it into our hands, in several ways, to dictate the allowance and/or taking of life (for this discussion, let’s simplify by speaking solely of human life). We have executions, abortions, contraceptives, medicines (that we can give or withold for financial, political, or religious reasons), euthanasia, wars, etc. All of the aforementioned can be rationalized to be either good or evil…

So, my questions right now (to WAY oversimplify!) are these:

-Is life sacred? (if so, can we humans take it in ANY form, execution, murder, abortion, in war? Please don’t think I am trivializing any of these, because I don’t think that I am… )

-If life IS sacred, then are we justified in taking it in any circumstance (such as the above mentioned)?

-If life is NOT sacred, than why is it NOT OK to simply kill anyone who irritates you? These people are WAY too common!

-If life IS sacred, then how can we justify taking life in any manner whatsoever? (Here I’m speaking of not only murder, but also executions, abortions, wars, etc…)
I don’t have the answers to any of these questions. And, frankly, I am shocked that so many people (on both sides of the aisle on any of the previously mentioned debates) claim that they DO! HOW DO THEY KNOW FOR SURE???

So, I did not mean to imply apathy at all… I’m sorry if my post came off that way. The truth is quite the opposite, and reflects my struggles with coming to terms with what, exactly it means to be “human” in this world…

I am not apathetic about this at all; quite the opposite, in fact! I am just very unsure of my own feelings regarding this… and working on it…