Pucker up:)
In a dark house the killer’s other senses might be heightened.
You don’t want your smell to give away your position:)
Actually, the posts directly above and below yours are (Freedom and BF).
Take IzzyR’s story, for example. There are any number of reasons why someone would break into your house other than nefarious schemes, and there are probably any number of ways for said person to gain entry into your home (you have a window, no?).
It’s not a strawman argument – stop saying that. While I’ll grant that trespassing comes in many forms, I thought we were all on the same page and that it was clear that “trespassing” referred here to the situation in the OP (assumed burglary late at night). If you don’t like the term, any will do so long as we’re still talking about the same situation.
No one is suggesing a round of “20 Questions.” There are several ways to determine whether a person in your house is a burglar (visual cues should be sufficient). Even if we assume that the person is a burglar, I can see no justification for seeking him out and killing him without warning. If one feels obligated to confront the intruder, warning (in the clearest way possible) said intruder that you are prepared to shoot him is a necessary precursor to pulling the trigger. If the intruder then begins to move towards you (or if he reaches for something in his pocket, etc.), then you can shoot. If he puts his hands up, don’t. I would also be unable to justify shooting a fleeing burglar in the back (unless I was sure I could nail him in the ankle, I suppose).
How is a burglary necessarily a threat to personal safety? Until you can ascertain whether an intruder is threatening you or just your property, lethal force is not justified.
But here is the sticking point - how do you do this? There are too many possible things to consider IRL.
Look. Talking about it impassively here, it makes sense. Sure, a burglar does not “deserve” death, nor serious debilitating injury either - IMO. But IRL things happen quickly, in darkness, confusion, and haste. And then, IMO, the decision comes down to : Where do I err? On which side?
Do you really know how quickly a violent attack can happen? How fast someone can move when they are a whole room away? How quickly you can be immobilized and beaten? Well, my friend - it may not be “The Matrix”, but shit sure seems to go bad really, really fast IRL.
I will not be a victim again. It nearly killed me, and I still have not recovered from it. I will err on my side of the equation every time. And if I am wrong, if somehow a drunk managed to defeat my locks, break down my door, and wander into my hall at night, well - I will take whatever society deems a punishment for me. I can tell you this - in my County, I put my odds at 99% or higher of not being arrested, let alone convicted, of using force to defend my home.
Essentially, I think as far as YOU and I are concerned, we are pretty close in thinking. It seems that you think one can/should make a larger effort towards determining the nature of the situation, and a “justifiable” amount of force to use. My argument is I do not need to worry so much about either if someone is in my house in a typical “nighttime invasion” scenario. Do I have this expressed right?
So nobody’s going to comment on how I went walking down the hallway carrying a broadsword?
Some intersting things have come and gone in 24 hours, so I’ll just roll up the sleeves and dig in:
Varloz: read the thread. My “Dad” story isn’t anectdotal. Training and education alleviate ignorance. Guidance and disciplne instills respect. Had your father taken the time with you and the gun to convey these simple messages, odds are you wouldn’t have been fooling around with something that wasn’t yours, and that you knew was potentially lethally dangerous.
But you are correct in one aspect: young’uns will get into stuff Houdini couldn’t have gotten out of.
Which is why more kids die from acidentally ingested poisons every year than from accidental firearms incidents.
Referencing your debate with Freedom, would you care to give us a few examples of when and how you could conceivably enter a person’s home uninvited and still be legally right?
And please don’t insult our intelligence with some lame-o scenario about kicking in soemone’s door to yell “Your House Is On Fire!”
Many states have laws predicated on the “Castle Doctrine (Law? Rule?)”, in that you, as a home owner/legal occupant/primary lessee, have every right to take whatever action you deem necessary at that moment against intruders. Legally, you can kill an intruder in your home, with no warning whatsoever, without fear of legal reprisal.
I have been told (this is unsubstantiated, as I have found no credible reference on the web, and haven’t been home since before XMas to find out for certain) that in Texas, if it can be shown [forensics] that you injured the intruder in your home, and they escaped or died off of your premises, you are still in the clear, as the injury/mortal wound took place in your home.
Am I advocating this course of action? Of course not. But as others have pointed out, when things go south, they go south with a quickness anyone who’s never been in a “Real Life” situation just can’t comprehend or believe until they’ve experienced it themselves.
Assuming they survive, that is. I did, luckily.
And having no desire to be in that situation ever again, I will err on the side of caution. I won’t just terminate at first sight, but if the fucker even looks twitchy, he’s going down.
Zwaldd: I actually drifted from the OP a bit in my “need a chambered gun right now” bit. People who carry a weapon about for self defense (legal concelaed carry) need a round chambered as, in a Real World Situation, you may not have time to chamber a round (you actually may never know what hit you, but that’s a horse of another color).
Cervaise:
[Goofy Highland Burr]
If’n yoo wont to ‘ack ‘em to peeces wit’ a br-r-r-roadswoord, laddie, be my guest. Joost ‘ave a pow’r’ful str-r-r-rong cleener too get the shite an’ blooood ou’ of ye carpet an’ ooff the walls.
Then tell the wee’un’s an’ the missus yeer 'aving haggis foor dinner foor a coupla days
[/Goofy Highland Burr]
But I recommend a stabbing sword, not a slashing/smashing one. A house or apartment may not give you the swinging room/windup you need to remove limbs from torso. You can stab with a broadsword, but it’s not the most efficient use of that particular blade. It requires a lot more hand-eye coordination and hand/wrist/forearm strength than TV makes it look.
Besides, swords are harder to use, IMHO, than a firearm. But that may just be my filtered prejudice at work; I’ve a lot more experience with firearms than swords.
Cervaise
I knew a guy that grabbed a golf club. He really didn’t have that good of a chip shot.
I also heard a story of a guy that grabbed a pepsi bottle.
So why not a sword.
VarlosZ wrote:
Even in California, where the State Motto is “Let’s pass some more gun control laws,” you are considered fully legally justified to use lethal force if there’s an intruder in your home. Even if you can’t tell whether or not he’s armed. The act of breaking-and-entering is sufficient cause for a reasonable person to believe that he or his family are in immediate danger of death or great bodily injury, and are fully justified in the use of lethal force.
Cervaise wrote:
Was it a Holy Avenger? And if so, are you a paladin, or did you have to use it as a plain old +2 sword? What’s your THAC0? How many attacks per melee round to you get? Were you wearing armor? Have you put any of your proficiency slots into weapon specialization, or are you not fighter-classed? What was your damage bonus from Strength? How many hit points did you have?
Details, man, details!
So you tell me: What business has an unidentified man in your home? What the hell happened to the sanctity of a person’s home? NOBODY has any business in my home uninvited, unless they come bearing badges AND a warrant. Short of that, anybody uninvited (or even more so, unidentified) in my home forfeits the reasonable expectation of safety, and probably their lives, because I make the basic assumption that if they mean me no harm, they will follow accepted protocol before entering my home. Also known as KNOCKING or otherwise obtaining my permission.
Wrong again. You put the burden of proof on the wrong person. The intruder is the one who is where he does not belong. HE is responsible to make sure he is welcome and make his intentions known. If he means no harm, then he can knock and will not intrude where he does not belong. It is not the responsibility of the homeowner to determine the intruder’s intent or that he means no harm. If his intentions are honorable, then he will not be creeping around the house at 2:00 am.
I’ll say it again: If you intrude on my home, then you are acting in bad faith, and since you have already committed one violation of the sanctity of my home and my family, it is a reasonable assumption that you do not mean to cook me breakfast, as Anthracite so eloquently put it.
Boy, this is a tough one for me.
I don’t think I could just blow the person away, no matter how scared I might be. I guess I’ve been in too many fistfights. So a gun would probably not be the right choice for me.
I probably could smack the dude with a bat (likely killing him anyway), so if I get worried, maybe I’ll arm myself with something I can think of as less lethal than a 12 ga.
BTW; We’re talking about in the house here, right? I’m sure most of you would first challenge someone who’s in your yard. Right?
Peace,
mangeorge
I think I speak for all the pro-gun crowd here when I say yes, all of this applies only INSIDE the actual home. Both philosophically and legally. If you kill somebody prowling around your yard (without reasonable provocation) then you’re guilty of murder. If you kill somebody prowling around your house, you’ve defended yourself.
BIG difference.
Cool, Joe_cool. I can think of at least one understandable reason for a person to be in your yard. Here’s the scenario;
A 56 yr. old out of shape fat dude (Ahem) is walking down your street and a car load of hooligans goes by, shouting objectionable phrases. The man reacts with a provocative gesture, forgetting the possible consequences. Well, these rascals take offense at his action and roar around the block, seeking to affirm their manhood. Said old fellow hides behind your azaleas, seeking shelter as it were. Good to know you won’t haul off and shoot me. I mean him.
Peace,
mangeorge
What Joe Cool said
One other thing a 12 guage has a lot more stopping power than say a 32. You don’t have to kill the guy.
“What are you doing in my azaleas?”
The old man jumped, startled at the voice. He turned and was faced by a woman holding a shotgun. Mid 30’s, but looking older, with some premature grey in her hair. But most noticably of all - holding a 12-gauge shotgun in her arms, and with a huge stainless revolver on her hip - comically large almost, if not for the frightening power it embodied.
“Please…”, he panted to her, “They’re coming back! You have to hide too!”
There was a roar of tortured V8, and a squealing of tires, as the car came charging up the block. A black Mercedes with sidepipes and smoked windows, the sound of its engine was drowned out only by the thumping of its bass.
The woman’s eyes narrowed. She gritted her teeth.
“Not on Una Persson’s block!”
She ran past the man in her flowers to the end of her drive, ignoring his frantic pleas.
“Wait, just hide! They’ll get you too!”
She turned and smirked - a self confident grin.
“No they won’t.”
The car slowed it’s charge and coasted to the end of Una’s drive, motor revving wildly as it’s driver gunned the throttle. The roar of the sidepipes shattered the silence of the block, rattling windows and shaking the leaves on the trees. The stereo was muted.
A young mustachioed face leered at her from the passenger seat.
“Hey! Old woman! Give us the man, and we might let you enjoy it.” Raucous laughter spread through the car.
Una racked the slide on the 12-gauge, and smiled.
“Go away. Or I will enjoy it.”
With a quick move, she raised the gun to her shoulder, and blew the hood ornament off of the Mercedes.
“Hey! That crazy bitch! She can’t do that!”
The car spun into reverse, did a quick bootlegger’s turn, and took off down the street. The man in Una’s azaleas came running up.
“Oh thank you, thank you! Did you scare them off?”
There was another screeching of tires as the car spun around, facing them, preparing for it’s final, deadly charge.
“Nope.”
Una sized the man up. “What’s your name?”
“M-man-mangeorge…”
Una handed the man the shotgun. “You’ll need this if you want to live.”
She drew the pistol from her belt. An enormous stainless steel .44 Magnum, its size made her small hands look odd.
The engine of the Mercedes revved wildly again, and then its tires disappeared in a cloud of white smoke as it accelerated towards them. Una took an isoceles stance, and raised her .44 Magnum to sight on the car. Casting a sidelong glance at the man, she said just this:
“Follow my lead.”
In the distance, a blue jay called…
Nice story but here comes David B Hide!!!
Not if he’s committing arson or stealing my car. At least not in Texas.
Marc
Ooh ya get to shoot car theives in TX 
We don’t in CA. Someone stealing your car does not constitute a “immediate life thretening situation”
Yes at least in CA you do not get to shoot people in your yard, even on your front porch. If they force entry into your house, CA law says something to the extent of you are not required to retreat from within your principal residence to avoid a potentially life threatening assault.
If you go out into your yard and kill a "prowler’ you have initiated the confrontation CA law does not smile on this practice.
As far as where I live, Uh earth last time I checked, people get killed here all the time.
To the charge of “waking up with a gun in my face”
If that happens its already too late for a gun. I go for the 2 second “I accept Jesus…yadda,yadda,yadda…”
Just in case 
Forget the intruder scenario. How are we going to teach our kids to deal with the “I was in the library studying, when the 15-year old boy who was made fun of walked into school and started blowing people away” scenario?
Should we all go around arming ourselves? Or would it be easier to make damn certain that our hormonal, disturbed 15 year old sons/nephews/neighbors don’t have access to our firearms?
Had the father not had a gun in the house two teenagers might very well be alive today. By all accounts, this kid was not a motivated, Nazi loving fanatic like the Columbine kids. But he had a gripe, he got fed up, and he had easy access to a very effective deadly weapon. End of story.
AARRRGGHH!
Sounds like me at his age. Maybe the solution is to make sure these kids are TOO DEPRESSED TO EVEN GET IT TOGETHER TO KILL SOMEBODY.
(Are winkies allowed in GD?)
Back to my method of home security: the Welcoming Committee. My dogs know friend from foe, even in the dark. One is capable of deadly, or at least very painful, force, but is not a psycho-dog that I have to worry about biting the neighbors. The other two are more effective as alarms, but one sounds especially large when he barks. Even the most doped-up crackhead will choose a quieter house than mine. Like the house next door, which has been broken into TWICE to my NEVER.
[aside]
You folks ever watch Cops? There have been several episodes in which a perp was being chased by heavily armed cops, but only gave up when a dog was let loose, or even THREATENED to be set loose. These guys are more afraid of dogs than armed professionals. Argues against the “advantages” of your shotguns. Except a shotgun won’t crap in the living room.
[/aside]
If he had access to the type of weapons we are discussing here it would have been more like 12 dead 7 wounded. Be thankful for the little .22 he was using.
As sad as that scenario is for all of its victims. Once every few years something like this has happened. Out of how many guns floating around? Out of how many picked on or ostracized high school kids?
This kid comitted several crimes before he even opened fire. No laws or safequards will prevent a determined person.
Who above stated “Kids will get into things houdini could never got out of”
How do we teach our kids deal with this? Be polite and respectful and you won’t have other kids freaking out like this. Wasn’t the first kids he shot someone who had stolen something from him?
I do not condone the death penalty for petty theft but I dont know all the details yet. Was this kid threatened with violence if he reported the harrassment he was recieving? Was he, after bringing the gun in, somehow provoked?