An Intruder Breaks Into Your Home -- What Are You Gonna Do?

Great Debates
121

Catbiker, burdened with responsibility, says;

I hereby relieve all who carry this awful burder of any and all responsibility for my personal safety.
Furthermore, I authorize the nice folks next door to me to post a sign, with an arrow indicating my house, which reads “No Guns There”. Although I will call the cops on, and probably confront, anyone I see messing with their house.
There now. Feel better? :wink:
And the above does apply to Satan even if he ain’t got no guns neither. :slight_smile:
Peace,
mangeorge (Have Bat, Will Travel)

122

Re: Gun Safety
My anecdote: My father kept a gun (a revolver) when I was little; it was only for self-defense (this was in Manhattan). When I was about 9 or 10, I had the house to myself and was rooting around. I found the gun, in a small, nondescript orange box tucked away in the very back of the top shelf of my father’s closet, behind several large suitcases, dusty boxes full of heavy equipment, etc. At a later date I found the bullets (hidden somewhere else, though I forget where, exactly). I had some friends over one time and decided to show them the coolest thing in the house. We then decided that the only thing cooler than the coolest thing in the house was a loaded “coolest thing in the house.” I loaded it . . . cocked the fuckin’ thing too (safety on, for what it’s worth). Nothing happened, but I did find that once I had cocked the hammer I was unable to open the chamber and remove the bullets (Q: why was this?). My dad got wise a couple of days later (I guess I hadn’t put the closet back the way it had been) and dumped the gun . . . after being severely freaked by finding his gun loaded.

I know it sounds awfully stupid, but ten year olds do stupid things. There is nowhere my father could have put the gun where I could not have gotten to it (save for a hypothetical safe whose only key was perpetually around his neck). I wouldn’t trust myself with a gun, but I can understand how someone living in a house occupied only by adults who really know how to use guns could decide to keep a gun, provided that no (visiting) children were ever permitted to be in a position in which they could potentially find the gun. Having spent the past six years raisng my little brothers (ages 4 and 6), I cannot even fathom anyone’s being so reckless as to keep a gun in the same residence as those two.

Re: Keeping a bullet in the chamber:
It seems like leaving an awfully small margin for error, doesn’t it?

Re: Killing Intruders
A couple of days agao, a few people mentioned that they would feel completely justified in killing a burglar, or that one automatically revokes his right to “life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness” once he trespasses. I would like some rational explanation for this. (The “national defense” analogy doesn’t work, as we’re not talking about neighboring nations at war; if Country A invades Country B, then B can assume the intention to take control of all or some of its territory [and B knows that A is armed and hostile]. If I know with reasonable certainty that a burglar wishes to enslave my family through force . . . but then we’re not talking about the situation in the OP, hence the non-applicability of the analogy).

I just don’t see how “he’s taking my TV” leads rationally to “I have the right to kill him if I’m able.” Please explain.

123

Simple - because it’s a strawman argument. I would hazard that very few people (even myself) would wish death on someone for stealing the TV. But how do you know that’s why they are creeping around your house at 2:00 am? Do you know if they are armed or not? IMO, simple burglars do not often break into occupied houses at night to steal - they do it during the day when the residents are gone.

In other words, when a woman alone wakes up in her apartment to find two strange men in it, she has no idea what they are there for - except it isn’t to make her strawberry crepes for breakfast. Anyone in my house at 2:00 am has not been invited, does not have my best interest at heart, and if they go so far to enter my bedroom (as in the scenario on Page 1, which this whole issue is really about), then I have a pretty good idea of why they want in the bedroom. And I feel no remorse in firing, or killing them under the circumstances I laid out in Page 1 (SDMB Stalkers take note).

Would it be devastating to kill another human being? Of course it would. However - would it be more devastating to be raped again? Or vivisected? Or killed? Yes, I think so.

Having the “guts” to be able to defend your own life or yourself from harm is not a Bad Thing, regardless of what many in the media and many liberals (hey, at least I didn’t say the “liberal media”) would have you believe - IMO. I believe I have a fundamental Human Right to defend myself from harm, and to defend my own life - at that “Right” supercedes the Right to Life of the person trying to or doing me harm or attempting to take my life.

124

Gun ownership from the self protection point of view.

In the past, I have spoken at length about the “force continuum”. This is the range of actions viewed by degree of force required to cover in order to have effective self protection. It ranges, on the far left, avoidance (the least violent and thankfully the most effective for of self defense) to, on the far right, lethal force. There are situations that are based responded to by lethal force. Typically, these situations on ones where unescapable lethal force is being used against you. At this time, there is no effective non-lethal tool that can be used to negate lethal force, so again lethal force is the most effective reply, even if this is unfortunate. As such, the handgun is the best means of projecting lethal force when needed. So, from a self protection perspective if (see below, i.e. read further before formulating your reply) if you wish to cover the entire force continuum, responsible gun ownership with proper training (*1) is pretty much a reality.

Does this mean that everybody should own a gun? Absolutely not! Gun ownership is a heavy responsibility. Guns are undoubtedly linked to home accidents even by the most careful of owners, let alone the numerous morons who own guns.

And if ultimately use your gun for self defense the cost is heavier still. People who have killed another human being often suffer from traumtic stress disorder (TSD). Some other symptoms of taking a human life include: insomnia, impotence and the mark of Cain complex (i.e. the person thinks that being can see the blood on their hands and think poorly of them). A criminal trial is a distinct possibility. A civil trial is even more likely. It can cost between $5,000 to $10,000 to defend yourself in civil court. Should you lose (a very possibility) your financial well being could be in serious jeopardy.

Also, I am forced to add that your chances of using your gun properly for self defense is not all that great without proper training (*1). A trained police officer under adrenal stress will hit with 4/10 shots (this is why police are trained to empty their guns). An untrained civilian will hit with about 1/9. A trained (*1) civilian gets up to about 2/10 to 3/10 (depends on the type and length of training). Criminals are roughly in this range too mainly since they have the advantage of the “criminal mindset” (*2) rather than any formal training. Your chances of winning a gunfight is at most 50%. It is typically worse. (Hey, the good news is that if you have help on the way your odds of surviving a gun fight is about 70-80%).

Does this mean you shouldn’t own a gun? Absolutely not! It means that this is a big decision and a person is justified in deciding in either direction, assuming they are making an informed decision.

(*1) Training is NOT going to the firing range every now and then. Training means should be some kind of scenario based training at best (the Lethal Force Institute offers great courses and travel around the country). If nothing else read some books on adrenal stress, then learn and practice techniques for developing the “defensive mindset”. The latter by itself makes a tremendous difference to your successful defense.

(*2) There has been some confusion in the past by what I mean by “criminal mindset”. This does not mean that criminals think differently than the rest of us. This is a term in self protection relating to predetermination of action and management of adrenal stress that criminals generally have.

125

My question is, why were you home alone at the age of 9 or 10?

126

i know, but after i gave it i was asked to defend it several times. the quote you cited was an answer to someone else’s argument against my rationale.
drachillix

i think i came up with a fine answer. take a look at justwannano’s list of safety precautions. you should assess your situation for the potential for danger, and work your way back in the list, starting from ‘fire’, until you feel the manner in which you store your gun doesn’t compromise your ability to protect yourself. if you can only reach ‘chamber round’ before you start to feel uncomfortable, then either chamber the round, or move somewhere else. i didn’t buy my guns for protection, so i can get all the way back past ‘purchase gun’ and i still don’t feel threatened.
ex-tank’s quote, comment to drachillix

and that’s my point. where do all you people live that you’re preparing to be woken up with a gun in your face? in 32 years, i have never been, nor have i known anyone who has been the victim of an armed home break-in, let alone one that required an instant grab and shoot. sure it happens, but it is such a rarity that to live each day of your life in constant readiness for the event borders on paranoia. meanwhile, think of all the times that you are going to remove your gun from its hiding place for whatever reason. each time you do that with a round in the chamber, you have the potential to accidentally fire the gun. of course you can have accidents when hunting or target shooting, but the idea is to minimize the opportunities. do you really need to keep a round in the chamber every night? i don’t know your situation, but i know i don’t. the only time i feel the need to have a gun fully loaded and chambered when i’m not actually aiming at something is when i’m hunting. and in that situation, the gun is rarely, if ever, out of my hands. to say ‘oh, but i’m too careful and responsible to have an accident’ is nothing but foolhardy.

127

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by VarlosZ *
**Re: Gun Safety
I loaded it . . . cocked the fuckin’ thing too (safety on, for what it’s worth). Nothing happened, but I did find that once I had cocked the hammer I was unable to open the chamber and remove the bullets (Q: why was this?).

I know it sounds awfully stupid, but ten year olds do stupid things. There is nowhere my father could have put the gun where I could not have gotten to it (save for a hypothetical safe whose only key was perpetually around his neck). I wouldn’t trust myself with a gun, but I can understand how someone living in a house occupied only by adults who really know how to use guns could decide to keep a gun, provided that no (visiting) children were ever permitted to be in a position in which they could potentially find the gun. Having spent the past six years raisng my little brothers (ages 4 and 6), I cannot even fathom anyone’s being so reckless as to keep a gun in the same residence as those two.

The reason you were un able to fire the gun was believe it or not a safty device. If you have the cylinder out you will find that the revolver cannot be cocked. This is to prevent you from having an accidential discharge while loading or reloading. If the hammer is down you can’t dump a round into the floor buy slaming the cylinder closed with your finger inside the triger guard. My uncle testified in a murder case where the above was the fact that got the guy convicted (only reason I know the answer).

As for the logic of keeping a firearm in a house with children I have to dissagree with you there. While I was growing up there were ALLWAYS guns in my home and they were ALLWAYS loaded. My father had worked in law enforcement briefly, during his time in law enforcement he came to the decision that “There is nothing quite so usless as an empty gun, hell it ain’t even a good paper weight son.”. The thing that you father forgot was if you have a gun in the home it is important that ALL members of the family know where it is, how to use it safely, and that it is a weapon. My father liked to say “You can’t take a bullet back, once you pull the trigger it’s done. If you ever pull a gun be feady to use it, and more improtantly before you pull make sure it is worth killing over.”.

If your children understand what a gun is and how dangerous they are it helps to reduce the chances of an incident liek the one you had in your childhood. Safty drills for your child are a necessity, and I had them regulary at random intervals for the age of Five till I was twelve. I also never fired a small calibur gun till I bought it myslef. I learned to shoot with a 357mag… Dad Did this for two reason the ferrocious recoil impressed in me for life a deep respect for guns. Two it removed the taboo most adults seem to have involving firearms and children. Kids are courouis creatures, if you remove the mystery then once again you have lowered the risk of accident in you home.

128

Anthracite:

Since when? I never meant to imply that I was referring to the situation you described (you in your bedroom, gun pointed at door, warning shout, warning shot, etc.). At that point, you would have good reason to believe yourself to be in imminent danger of harm. I was referring to, among other things, the statement below:

I have a problem with this and the opinion that some hold that says it’s okay to walk up to an unidentified man in your house and blow his brains out.

Exactly my point. The homeowner in this situation has no idea what the intentions of the (assumed) burglar are. Unless you feel that the mere act of trespassing warrants a summary execution, I see no way to justify the use of lethal force without good reason to believe your own physical well-being to be in jeopardy.

plg:

Parents were divorced, my dad lived a block away from school. At the time he was working a job that got out an hour or two after school did, so I would walk home (along with 50 other kids who lived in the same building) and let myself in. It really wasn’t a big deal (if you take the firearm out of the equation).

129

justwannano wrote:

Er … from what little I remember of the few times I’ve handled a semi-automatic pistol at a gun range, I could have sworn it was possible to close the action (and thus move the magazine’s first round into the firing chamber) with the safety on.

Or do these modern new-fangled gizmos have an “action safety” in addition to the traditional “trigger safety” and “hammer safety”?

130

Here’s an interesting true story that took place about seven years ago, a few houses down the block from my in-laws (Brooklyn, NY). In middle of the night (about 2:30 AM or so, IIRC) the family was awakened by the sound of the door being pounded in. They called 911, but the police were not going to get there in time. The husband/father had worked in a bad part of town about a decade before that, and had acquired a gun & permit at that time. When he left that job he had squirreled away his gun, and no one in his family knew that he had it hidden on the premises, including his wife who thought he had gotten rid of it. He got it out now. Presently the intruder came crashing through the door. The homeowner pointed his gun at him and, when the guy kept charging at him, shot him dead.

Sounds like a classic case of self-defence (and ultimately was, from a legal standpoint). Then came the rest of the story.

Turns out that the guy bashing down the door was not looking to harm anyone. (Which makes sense on later reflection - few criminals are intrested in making that kind of commotion). He had been in a violent street confrontation with his fiance’s father, and was actually running for his life, hoping to find refuge somewhere. He was also an immigrant to this country, and his command of English was very poor. Presumably he may have hoped to communicate his situation to the family, and perhaps even made some attempt along these lines, but at any rate, between the tension of the situation and his lack of proficiency in English, he failed to do so, and lost his life.

(The homeowner was brought before a grand jury but was not indicted. However, I remeber him being extremely relieved when this decision came down, as he had faced a very real, if unlikely, prospect of prosecution. I think the 911 call was an important factor, as was the testimony of the other family who lived in the building (it was a two family house). Otherwise, I heard that some relatives of the slain man came by the block and muttered some veiled threats, but I’m unsure if this is true, and in any event nothing came of them).

Obviously this is a very unique story, and you can’t make too much of it. But it goes to the heart of what makes the question in the OP such a fascinating one. In situations like these, you must make split second decisions about matters that you have only a vague understanding of, but whose consequences are enormous.

131

Emphasis mine. I guess this could be seen as generational(?), societal(?), environmental, whatever, difference in upbringing or education, the exact term fails me. VarlosZ points out above that an intruder in his home would be classified as a trespasser and dealt with accordingly, and I don’t mean to be flippant, but what? Ask for ID, how’s it going, how can help you?

Maybe its a rural thing, someone who enters your living space without invitation is a threat. If you’ve got the balls enough, (or cranked up enough on whatever) to walk into my house uninvited, I’m not going to play twenty questions with you to find out what your intentions are, I can assume (uh-oh) that they aren’t in my best interest. When threatened, you pull the trigger until the threat is removed, then you call the cops.

132

True, I was mixing issues here. I apologize.

Few (if any) are suggesting this. Invading my house is not some unidentified person who just happens to be in there. How does someone just happen to be my house anyhow? My doors are locked 24 hours - what sort of neighborhood does one live in where people would come and go out of a house, without the full permission of the owner? How does a person just happen to be in my house, breaking all three locks on the door, in the middle of the night?

This is another strawman argument. Breaking into a locked house is not “the mere act of trespassing.” Trespassing can include many, many non-violent acts - like a person coming into my back yard in the daytime, or kids playing, or the UPS man setting a package in my garage. Wandering around my house in the middle of the night is pretty unambiguous.

And why is it my responsibility to play 20-questions with whomever is in my bedroom at 2:00 am? IRL, violent crimes tend to happen alarmingly fast - I’ve been a victim of some pretty violent crimes, and I know what I’m talking about. I guarantee that if I have to have total identification of the person(s) in my house and their intents, I will be a victim long before I find an answer. Or I guess the answer will be self-evident as his pants unzip.

133

I will go ahead and say it flat out.
I feel that anyone who illegaly enters a home they are not welcome at, have made the decision to forfeit their life if they bump into anyone who belongs in the home.
It is really quite simple.

Stay out of houses that you do not own and you have no reason to fear.

I am shocked to find out that there are people in this world who would be willing to “understand” that someone would come into their home and that the burglar should face no risks.

I belive that the moment they illegaly enter my home, I have a legitamate reason to fear for my life.

134

Aw, this is easy. Since the Welcoming Committee (three dogs) is usually loose in the house I sleep soundly.

135

I’ve planned and trained for this one for a long time. It’s gotten easier and more practical since I bought a house a month or so ago.

Hit the bedside panic button for my monitored security system. It dispatches police and fire, but unfortunately does not bave an all through the house alarm. It just beeps at the panic button and at the main unit.

Grab the 20 gauge loaded with home defense loads (#4 shot is a good compromise load, as it won’t exit the exterior walls but is hefty enough to go through leather jackets, etc.; unlike the bird loads some people prefer).

Step low and slow into the hallway and rack the slide. My bedroom is at the end of the hall, and I can see down its length into the main part of the house without worrying about anything on my sides or to my rear.

Wait. If I see said intruder, he or she has two choices: When commanded, lie down on his or her stomach, facing away from me with hands outstretched until the police arrive(please please please let them be smart enough to do this) or be shot to death.

If I don’t see the intruder, I wait until the police show up - laying the gun on the ground BEFORE they come into the house and putting my hands on top of my head to make sure I don’t get Dialloed.

If anyone does not have a home security system with a bedside activator and can afford one, I urge you to get one. Installation is usually free (you can just about always negotiate the charge away if the company has one to start with) and the cost is around $30 a month for mst systems. Well worth it.

136

Freedom, South Carolina agrees with you. In case y’all hadn’t heard, the state attorney general for South Carolina has adopted a “invade a home, invite a bullet” policy: he “has instructed all solicitors, sheriffs and police chiefs in the state to refrain from arresting citizens acting to defend their homes with a firearm or other weapon.” (quote taken from this article).

Just for fun, let’s talk about how safe-storage laws can have fatal consequences. This article was originally printed in Investor’s Business Daily. The first few paragraphs:

137

I dunno. I think you’ve got to hold your fire. I mean, it could be Robert Downey, Jr.

138

Tracer

Well this is a pretty old gun.
You cannot cock it (chamber round) with the safety on.

139

After reading all the rest of the posts now, I want to clarify something from my last reply. Wehn I said I’d rack the slide on the shotgun when stepping into the hallway, that’s because it’s a HEAVY deterrent factor. I saw the quote once that “No one in his right mind will argue with the sound of a riot gun chambering.”

All my other guns are fully loaded and chambered at all times. This includes the Beretta that is always on my thigh (except in bars or businesses which have a no firearms policy). The Beretta is carried chambered, safety off, hammer down. Since it requires 10 lb. of pressure to discharge in double action and is designed not to discharge even if dropped squarely onto the hammer from 20 feet, I think this is more than enough “reasonable caution.”

140

Boy, there are a lot of cool customers here. I am impressed with the level of preparedness displayed in this thread.

Personally, I like the idea of having a gun to protect you and yours, but I don’t happen to have one. Therefore, I think the first thing I would do if there was an intruder in our house is shit my shorts.

Shortly after that, I’d probably get the phone to the wife, get the wife in the closet (making a 911 call), and immediatly get my son (ignoring all the best advise from Strong).

If I could get both wife and kid tucked away, I’d likely go for any kind of heavy object which could be used to hit the intruder (no bats in the house, but I think I’ll keep big ol’ pipe wrench in my nightstand now).

How the heck someone could actually think about the intruder’s motivation is beyond me. I’d be scared shitless, worried only about my family, and willing to do anything I’m able to do to stop the creep, including a very ugly death by bludgeoning. I would not think twice about why this person is there, or how innocent he may be, all I would want is my family’s safety. How can you think otherwise?