I’m curious what evidence, at this point, do you think would convince Ambivalid that Tupac wasn’t gay?
Which part of these quotes led you to believe that:
My problem with the thread was that he presented IMO weak evidence, declared that it led to unassailable Truths, and then got pissy when people called him on it. The thread could have been an interesting discussion on the subject, but instead it was a train wreck because of the way it was presented.
I generally don’t have a problem with the poster, or his thoughts on issues. I often find myself questioning his posting style and what I perceive as thin skin.
Here’s his Wiki page.
None of that can compete with the facts that the guy was into ballet and talked funny in a YouTube video one time.
I guess I took it as hyperbole because he admitted to not having slept and not thinking with a clear head. Also, people read other people differently. Some notice things others are oblivious to.
Look, I’m not his attorney, nor do I play one on TV. I just chose to give the guy the benefit of the doubt.
Don’t make me regret being nice. It doesn’t happen often. Most of the time I consider all of you complete bastards. 
I was wrong to present my opinion as unassailable fact. I acknowledge that mistake. However, cmon. To describe the attacks on my character that ensued as “calling me” on the error of asserting opinion as fact is, a loose use of the phrase “call me on it”.
No. I have clarified this over and over. My opinion of the man’s sexual orientation changed solely because of mannerisms and speech patterns he displayed in his 1988 interview. I found out post-interview that he was a dancer. What this did was COMPLIMENT what I saw in the video. No, not every male ballet dancer is gay.
As this cite shows, male ballet dancers have historically faced a lot of prejudiced treatment based on stereotypes. My incredulity upon hearing of Tupac’s ballet history was based on the persona of Tupac that has always been sold for public consumption. The image he cultivated was one that needed to be able to access and reach those fans living within the most toxic of toxic masculinity cultures; namely the hip hop culture of urban young black males.
The image of Tupac dancing ballet was a jarring clash of stereotypes that produced a humorous scene in my head. Again, I dont see anything inherently “gay” about being a ballet dancer. If anything, as an athlete, I have a lot of admiration for the skill and strength required to be a male ballet dancer. And i honestly meant nothing derogatory when i referred to male damcers as “ballerinas”. I did not know there were genderized distinctions. I do now. But my sister was a ballerina for more than a decade, so I’ve been to many a performance and ive seen the feats of the male dancers. It’s NOT a wimpy or effeminate role. But it does carry a lot of male stereotypes, and as a result, it tends to attract a certain type of male (non-“macho” male") and tends to make the boys who do choose the path of dance as “effeminate”.
This is in direct conflict with the Thug Life rapper who dripped with machismo. And someone (it might have been this thread or the thread that spawned this one) was outraged that I seemed to be saying that a gay man couldnt possess machismo. Well, my understanding of machismo has always been in line with the basic description of this wiki:
Specifically, machismo is a sort of hypermasculinity. With this understanding, I don’t see how it’s possoble for a gay man to possess “machismo”. It’s not a positive description. But it was the jacket that Tupac wore as he made the mark on the world he did. And it was the fucking opposite of the Tupac from 1988. Hence my “speechless” reaction to seeing that Tupac.
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Effect on participation
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In a study done on peer attitudes of participants in “gender specific” sports (e.g. ballet and American football), teens ages 14–18 were found to have strong stereotypical views. Males who frequently participated in a “sex-inappropriate” athletic activity were perceived as more feminine than those who did not. The study also suggested, “This stereotyping of athletes may have an important impact on the willingness of athletes to participate in certain sports. Likewise, these stereotypes may tend to filter out certain types of potential participants — e.g., macho males … in athletic activities which are ‘inappropriate’ for one’s gender.”[13] Victoria Morgan, a former principal ballerina with the San Francisco Ballet now an Artistic Director and C.E.O. of the Cincinnati Ballet, relates “… I feel there is a stigma attached to ballet in America that doesn’t reflect the reality… This makes it difficult to attract some audience members and boys for ballet companies”.
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Here is Tupac’s first movie role. See anything gay there? He’s wearing a Yankees jersey. That’s pretty gay, right?
Thanks man. I feel like every once in a while at least, I deserve the benefit of the doubt. 8 years of a non-bigoted, non-homophobic presence on this mb has got to mean something. And I probably was victim to a bit of sleep-deprivation induced giddiness. I know I made a few mistakes in what i posted. But my main point is unchanged.
You know, reading all these links just makes me even more convinced. Now, I’m not going to declare anything as “fact” or “must be so” but lets just look at a couple things: first: the “down-low” culture. This is a product of the AA male community and it, well i will just link to the Wikipedia…
The following excerpt of the above quote seems particularly relevant:
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Most date or marry women and engage sexually with men they meet only in anonymous settings like bathhouses and parks or through the Internet. Many of these men are young and from the inner city, where they live in a hypermasculine thug culture.
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IF one shared my opinion on this subject, the concept of “down-low” culture would be difficult to immediately dismiss out of hand as not possibly being relevant to the life of Tupac. He was very concerned about maintaining a “Thug” image. Heck, he is on record breaking an extended 18-month “thing” off with Madonna because “it was hurting my thug image” (because she was white). So it wouldn’t necessarily prove anything by showing he had a brief 10-month sham marriage or a “fiancee” that no one can find any record of or evidence supporting the claim. And IF Tupac was involved in this subculture, it was a result of necessity, not shame or rejection of an “effeminate” culture. He knew he had a thug image to uphold. If he wanted to have and keep the platform he saw as being of utmost value as a tool of societal change, he knew he had to “be” a certain type of way.
Also, while it could be nothing more than evidence of a man who was careful or unwilling to saddle a woman with responsibilities that exceeded her resources, the fact that Tupac never fathered a child gives me the tiniest bit of pause. This is in stark contrast not just to the average rapper but to the ultra famous pop culture male celebrity.
Some of the factors that added together make up this picture are more helpful than others but they all point in the same general direction. The foundation for ALL of it, however, the one thing that would cause the entire picture to disintegrate if removed is the 1988 video. All the other stuff is only something to consider with the video as the basis for all of it.
wtf dude. I’m posting in good faith here. Are you?
I will have never guessed in a million years that Tupac has a ballet background. I agree it’s jarring. It’s also awesome. My youngest daughter attends dance classes (ballet, jazz, hip-hop) and I have met male ballet dancers there. Most are very masculine, they are just flexible, graceful and very strong (you have to be a beast to pull off those moves). Some are effeminate but they’re the minority. I don’t know who is or isn’t gay (nor cared).
I wonder if the stereotype about ballet has less to do with the art form, and has more to do with how the US/England feel about the French? Because it’s very much a French art form; the terminology, the culture, etc. I wonder how it is viewed within France itself? (Totally idle speculation from me.)
Ugh. Sorry for the long ass posts. I try to make them as succint as possible, they just end up that long by the time everything i need to say is put into words.
Did you read the Wikipedia link about ballet that i posted at the top of post #107? It is a very informative link.
Admittedly, that was kind of a joke. But, yes, I actually can’t believe that you put forth an opinion that a person is gay simply by watching a video on YouTube from when the guy was 18.
As mentioned above, what evidence would you need to see/read in order to change your opinion?
[quote=“Atamasama, post:111, topic:833248”]
I will have never guessed in a million years that Tupac has a ballet background. I agree it’s jarring. It’s also awesome./QUOTE]
Oh I absolutely agree! I never, ever meant to give a different impression. I guess i should have described the man in more unambiguously admiring terms (as far as these things we are discussing are concerned, the man was complicated and flawed like everyone else) It shows an overwhelming strength of self and confidence that is generated from within, not dependent on the right kind of feedback from the outside world. That is the recipe for amazing achievement. If you KNOW you are capable, all the naysayers in the world can’t dissuade you. It’s almost like a mental illness but without any negative consequences. Lol (if you believe you are king of the world but every single person in the world is telling you that you are a bum living under a bridge, who is right?)
No, you’re not posting in good faith. You’re posting on a site that fights ignorance, trying to use subjective points to prove… well, you can’t prove it, as Tupac Shakur is not alive to confirm or deny the assertions. And if he said he was straight, people who saw the video might just accuse him of lying or being in the closet or in denial or whatever.
As for ballet…
Male ballet dancers have to be strong enough to lift a 100+ pound woman over their head for a prolonged period of time. A slender, fit, acrobatic woman who is probably good-looking and wearing not that much. Plenty of straight men want that.
As for using mannerisms, well…
There was someone in my high school class who was very “stereotypically” gay. So much so that I believed he had to be straight, because no one trying to stay in the closet would be that obvious. I was wrong. He came out of the closet once he moved away from his parents. I guess he didn’t feel any real need to hide at school, but he did not tell anyone until it was safe for him to do so.
A few years later I learned a coworker was gay, and he did not seem to match any stereotypes, even if you know and started looking out for them. I only found out months afterward when some of his friends told me. He invited his boyfriend to work once, and the guy basically had “I AM STRAIGHT” written all over him. Nobody would think he was gay, as he did not have a single gay mannerism. Nothing about his appearance would make you think he was gay. If you saw a video of him, you would swear he was straight.
The mannerisms and stereotypes are nonsense. They are not predictive. Some people will match just by random chance, and some will be the exact opposite. This makes about as much sense as a webcomic I read, where someone suggested that a woman was a lesbian because she drives a Subaru. There’s not any sort of logic to that at all. (Turned out she was, but it had nothing to do with the car she owned. Catching a picture of her checking out the female lead’s spandex-clad posterior was more a more objective and accurate determination method.)
[quote=“manson1972, post:114, topic:833248”]
Admittedly, that was kind of a joke. But, yes, I actually can’t believe that you put forth an opinion that a person is gay simply by watching a video on YouTube from when the guy was 18./QUOTE]
That opinion was formed because of a lifetime(!) of the world and the people themselves giving me information that made such an opinion stand out as highly likely. I shouldn’t have used the terms I did that conveyed absolute certainty. THAT was a mistake and for that I am sorry.
You have admitted to scant experience with gay people didnt you? I have grown up around gay pepple and have verrry good friends who are gay, one in particular i have been friends with for over 25 years. I am not homophobic. AT WORST, I am lacking in the experience necessary to crack the anecdotal wall that surrounds me on this issue.
One poster, in the process of telling me how bad my behavior was, shared her own story about how she had her own similar experience of mistaking a straight man as gay, simply due to his manner of speech. She learned her lesson by living it, experiencing it. I wonder whether this same poster would have not made that mistake if someone had lectured her that “stereotypes shouldnt ever be used to define people”. Or maybe, she needed to experience it herself.
Well that’s exactly the situation i find myself in. Except my situation involves needing to be shown that there really are men in our society that not only exhibit an effeminate speaking style but also all the non-verbal mannerisms, body language, etc. People can criticize me all day long and tell me that im wrong. Until im SHOWN to be wrong, I won’t be able to shake 40 years of the exact same message being received.
Well, I was in the military for many years, and yes, I found out that some people were gay that I would have never guessed. But I never tried to guess, since it doesn’t matter to me.
To be honest, I don’t see any of that in the video. Of course, I’m not trying to see that, so maybe that’s it. And why do you NEED to be shown that? It seems better to me to respond to a question like “Hey, was Tupac gay?” with “How the fuck should I know?”
As far as I see, people are attacking your argument, not you personally. It’s you who are making it personal. You may feel differently.
After the first response, you stated “Fuck it. I’m out.” I assume (please correct me) that was in response to this:
It’s sharp, certainly, but it’s not a personal attack on you. To my eyes, that’s about your argument.
Wrong, I absolutely am posting in good faith. (This is getting exhausting) I’m not trying to prove a fucking thing about Tupac. For starters, he’s dead and also im not in a court of law or am interested in “proving my case”. I am trying to show how my life experiences have shaped the lens thru which I viewed that '88 video. It was not homophobia or bigotry, it was a lifetime of NEVER, NOT EVEN ONCE having those experiences result in conflicting information. It was all one way.
Also, I do not understand what you’re trying to say with the example of the “very stereotypically gay” classmate. How does it support your position to say that he exhibited the “gay stereotype panoply” very strongly and he turned out to be gay?
Nor do I understand ypur point in bringing up gay men who do not fit the stereotype. I nevvvvvver said that being gay = acting stereotypically gay. What i said was “acting stereotypically gay in multiple ways” = being gay in every instance I have ever experienced. If anything, I’d say there are mpre big buff manly gay dudes out there than straight. After all, they are needing to attract men and men are much more visually oriented (or aroused) than women.
And I’ve spoken at length about the ballet subject. I am not going to repeat my entire posts but I don’t think there is anything “gay” or “sissy” about being a male ballet dancer. My sister was a pretty advanced ballet dancer for about a decade. During that time I went to many shows where I was witness to many a manly feat by the male counterparts to the ballerinas. I brought up the ballet angle in the original thread because of the huge cultural chasm between that Tupac and the later, hypermasculinized thugged out Tupac. And if you read the wiki link I posted about the stereotype of male ballet dancers, you will see that the PERCEPTION of femininity serves to limit the number of “macho” boys younger men from taking part. “Strong” doesnt necessarily = “masculine”, at least not when it comes to the perceptions of these qualities.
And I might not like to admit it in this company but that ship has sailed: the cues on display in the hs video are cues that have been accurately predictive for me 100% throughout my entire life. And that has been a life that did not lack gay interaction and friendship. Do you understand why that might need more than ridicule to overcome?