Ok, it seems as tho a major, if not primary, theme of the criticism of my OP was the language I used to convey what I felt strongly about but had no way of ever knowing one way or another. I have admitted numerous times that i was WRONG to present my ideas as assertions. I repeat it here again. I really regret torpedoing what i hoped to be a very thought provoking conversation. I had hopes that the conversation could take off from the specifics of one individual and expand to a discssion about cultural issues and society-wide ills. And it still has ultimately been a hard but valuable experience for me.
*And re Mr. Dibble, right i know we’re in the Pit, that’s why i returned his insult with no fear of mod repercussion.
o all I needed to do to avoid any criticism from you would have been for me to just deny forming my opinion with the use of stereotypes?If i recall, altho i will have to go back to verify (and if I’m mistaken i will correct the record here) but i belidve your criticism of me came even before my acknowledgement of using stereotypes?
And why must criticism depend on a good-faith admission of guilt to the actions which are perceived to warrant criticism before you can or will criticize those actions or behaviors? Or a better way to phrase it is, why do you only hold this as a requirement for criticizing gay people who display the same stereotype-dependent thinking and speculating as a straight person such as myself? Your argument/reasoning strikes me as very weak here and I would appreciate some clarification.
That is enough. I’ve been out of the closet, living openly for longer than you have been alive. And you are going to tell me what being gay is all about. Oh no. Fuck no.
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Um, I’m sorry, am i missing something here? What part of my post did you interpret as telling you what being gay “is all about”. The only i was doing in that post is trying to show the difference in harm between what I’ve always understood the concept of “outing” to entail and the discussion I’ve started here. IMO, a world of difference exists there.
Honestly, this is the sort of gigantic misunderstanding that just confounds me. I am flummoxed as to how anyone could read the post you quoted and come away with that as the message being conveyed.
I don’t think it did, IIRC – I don’t think I was critical of you until you said that you based it on mannerisms alone.
This seems to indicate that you see the criticism as a punishment. It’s not meant as a punishment in any way – it’s meant to point out something that you might find useful and helpful, just as I hope you’d do for me.
But, in general, I don’t think I can provide anything useful or helpful to gay people in terms of how to talk about gay people, and only in unusual circumstances (such as a gay person saying that their judgment is entirely based on stereotypes) would I think this sort of criticism would be appropriate.
Your fainting-couch schtick about androgynous-looking Kpop stars is tiresome too. “Oh no, the boys look quite a bit like girls! How incomprehensible and terrifying!” :rolleyes: Those androgynous Kpop stars are looking way manlier than your sorry pearl-clutching ass is right now.
This seems kind of harsh. At least he has seemed to learn that he can’t use stereotypical mannerisms and looks gleaned from a video to determine the sexual orientation of someone.
Yes, and Pit or no Pit, I probably shouldn’t have said it. I apologize. But having conniptions over other people’s gender-nonconformity just seems annoyingly silly to me. It’s not like deliberately androgynous presentation by performers hasn’t been a well-known thing for literally hundreds of years.
And why must criticism depend on a good-faith admission of guilt to the actions which are perceived to warrant criticism before you can or will criticize those actions or behaviors? Or a better way to phrase it is, why do you only hold this as a requirement for criticizing gay people who display the same stereotype-dependent thinking and speculating as a straight person such as myself? Your argument/reasoning strikes me as very weak here and I would appreciate some clarification.
That is enough. I’ve been out of the closet, living openly for longer than you have been alive. And you are going to tell me what being gay is all about. Oh no. Fuck no.
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Um, I’m sorry, am i missing something here? What part of my post did you interpret as telling you what being gay “is all about”. The only i was doing in that post is trying to show the difference in harm between what I’ve always understood the concept of “outing” to entail and the discussion I’ve started here. IMO, a world of difference exists there.
Honestly, this is the sort of gigantic misunderstanding that just confounds me. I am flummoxed as to how anyone could read the post you quoted and come away with that as the message being conveyed.
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Um, I’m sorry, am i missing something here? What part of my post did you interpret as telling you what being gay “is all about”. The only i was doing in that post is trying to show the difference in harm between what I’ve always understood the concept of “outing” to entail and the discussion I’ve started here. IMO, a world of difference exists there.
Honestly, this is the sort of gigantic misunderstanding that just confounds me. I am flummoxed as to how anyone could read the post you quoted and come away with that as the message being conveyed.
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My point is you have no idea what it’s like to be gay other than what you have read or heard or made up. You attempted to out Tupac, based on stereotypes, then have the nerve to tell me about the dangers of outing.
Then the gay kids stuff. I was a gay kid. I resent your "Reader’s Digest’ version of what being a gay kid is like.
You know nothing about being gay. So please shut up.
My point is you have no idea what it’s like to be gay other than what you have read or heard or made up. You attempted to out Tupac, based on stereotypes, then have the nerve to tell me about the dangers of outing.
Then the gay kids stuff. I was a gay kid. I resent your "Reader’s Digest’ version of what being a gay kid is like.
You know nothing about being gay. So please shut up.
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Dude, calm down. You are letting your emotional reactions color your perceptions of my words. I ABSOLUTELY, POSITIVELY, ON NO WAY am qualified to, nor have i, ever, tried to tell a member of a socially oppressed minority group what it really means to experience life as a member of that group. Come on! I am a paraplegic! I have lots pf empathy for my fellow minorities.
All ive been doing is acting on cues and patterns that have presented themselves to me in a way that always without fail reinforced a pre-existing steteotype among some gay men. Among the men (young men included) I have encountered thruoughout my whole life who have exhibited not just one but a whole host of speech patterns, mannerisms and body language that coincides with the stereotype of the “effeminate gay man”, ive never neen shown to be mistaken (when o am informed outright of the amswer after my first impression.
You cannot out someone unless you have special knowledge. They would have had to tell you, or you overhear it, or have stumbled upon them actually having sex with the same sex. It would be like spoiling someone when you’ve not read the book.
He also did not in any way tell you what the gay experience was like. All he did was try to explain the difference between outing and speculating. Outing is this hugely damaging thing, while everybody speculates.
Now, granted, there are forms of speculation that can be harmful–particularly when said speculation is used as a way to attack people. And I would suspect that is an experience you have had. But that doesn’t make it outing.
I’ve mostly stayed out of this thread. At first, for unrelated personal reasons, and then later because everyone else was doing a good job explaining things, and it seemed that Ambivalid understood. (And he was admirably explaining himself, as well.) But I can’t stand back while the guy is accused of doing something he didn’t do.
Especially since I think your post makes it harder for him to understand, by using an unusual definition of “outing.” And then you’re telling him to “shut up,” preventing him from asking more questions or learning.
And goddamn it, read for comprehension. I wasnt trying to inform you about the dangers of outing specific to any subculture. I was stating how the actual, socially agreed-upon term was defined. After stating the definition of the term, i could then hopefully have an easier time showing the UNIVERSE of difference between “outing” and the OP I posted in good faith, in earnezt desire of engagement of the issues. Or are you telling me you see NO difference between a bunch of cruel teenagers ganging up to mock and out a gay classmate whose life could very easily be in danger as a direct result of the cruelty of his classmates and writing the OP i did about what I believed about a dead mans sexuality? I overstated the level of evidence and certainty. Big time. And i admitted that. Myriad times. Now respond d to what o write or leave me yhe fuck alone.
I want to defend you (or anyone else) when I think they’re being misunderstood, but you gotta lay off this shit:
Can you be more hypocritical? You didn’t edit your post, despite the comma splices, the typos, the lack of any punctuation. The only thing you have better on his post is that you capitalize words. But I’d argue pitting someone outside the Pit is far, far more annoying.
I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt that something shitty was going in your life on right then and you were out of your element. But please don’t start doing that shit. It’s worse than what that guy we’re talking about said, and at least he was in the Pit.
This goes to show the importance of appropriate capitalization. I cringe but keep reading past to/too/two or they’re/there/their mistakes, but capitalization errors are inexcusable.
Hehe, that said, I’ll admit to not capitalizing words like god/xmas/christianity, but that’s something I do intentionally and so I give me a pass.
I’d say no. While there is a tiny bit of a lispy voice i dont see much of any of the other cues, the mannerisms, the body language. He very well may be gay or he very well may be straight.
Yes, you are right. I fully accept responsibility for doing a wrong thing and i am going to apologize to that poster. No excuses.
