Of course he can’t discern the difference, since dreaming is basically what is going on. Instead of waiting with baited breath for this BS to get off the runway I suggest people google on “lucid dreaming” and “false awakenings” along with their OBE/astral projection searches.
Maybe it was posted somewhere else in this elephant but here’s a staff article about it.
Oh yeah my guess: 9 troll dolls & a suction cup Garfield.
Quit confusing things here. Lucid dreaming and astral projection (aka out-of-body experiences) are 2 different things. Cite. Furthermore, I had a lucid dream once and it was nothing like AP.
And you mean “bated breath”.
SDSTAFF Doug’s article fails to convince me he’s even had an astral projection, as opposed to a dream. In fact he makes it pretty clear he hasn’t by saying “your wide-awake brain tells your body ‘Okay, I’m getting up now,’ and sometimes you will actually feel the sensation of getting up and see appropriate images even though you haven’t budged an inch or opened your eyes” since real astral projections typically involve a person finding themselves already outside their body, usually near the ceiling.
And the other two…? :dubious:
There is a definite qualitative difference between them. It’s not really a logical after-the-fact sorting out of “this incident was AP” and “that incident was a dream.” The first time it happened, I had heard about AP (may have read about it also; not sure exactly when but I have read one or two of Dr. Monroe’s books) and was wanting very much for it to happen basically because it would be cool. When I found myself in this unusual state - floating sensation, seeing the room from above, lit with a bluish pulsating strobe effect, odd noise - it occurred to me at the time that it might be an AP. When I described it to my parents they said it sounded like AP. Ever since then, whenever I experience the floating sensation and odd pulsating sound, it is perfectly obvious to me at the time that another such event is taking place.
It occurs to me from writing the above paragraph that of course they could have been wrong and perhaps the experiences I’ve had aren’t what most people refer to as AP. But I have to stay with it in the absence of any other explanation for experiences that are so different from normal waking and dream states.
Still looking for a cite. According to the page I linked to when I said lucid dreams and AP are not the same thing, there appears to have been at least one study conducted on OBEs of which AP is a type. The problem with searching is that the subject yields way more “mystical” type sites than scientific sites.
Here is a study that was done where a person’s brain was stimulated in such a way that an OBE resulted. Apparently, the doctors did not think OBEs were not a genuine phenomenon. :rolleyes:
Oh and BTW, if you’re trying to solve this scientifically, the answer is obviously in quantum mechanics.
The reason we see the world around us visually is because the photons hit our pupils.
So then for you to be able to see anything visually in another persons room you’d have to have an invisible(or visible?) photon reciever there.
Not only that, but then this information would have to travel back to your brain through an invisible pipe of some sort.
Now that we know all these things, the world is suddenly less magic.
To say something like “oh no, this works on a completely other level” would be non sense and would get us nowhere.
So even if you guessed all numbers correctly, or all the items on a desk correctly I wouldn’t believe it until it was a mathematical formula on a paper.
But that’s just me.
You’re not too convincing yourself. APs and OBEs are a variety of dream state: Cite (well certainly as solid a cite as yours).
I don’t think it can even be called “sceptical” to predict this AP test will fail like the thousands before it. Oh and add two more troll dolls if it makes you happy.
You’re not too convincing yourself. APs and OBEs are a variety of dream state: Cite (well certainly as solid a cite as yours).
I don’t think it can even be called “skeptical” to predict this AP test will fail like the thousands before it. Somehow my mistaken “baited” breath seems appropriate for this thread as in “hook, line and sinker” 
Cityboy916, that link you cited just reinforces what many of us have been saying all along about the wide range of experiences often described as psychic – OBEs, NDEs, Astral Projection, etc. Note that merely stimulating the brain electrically caused similar (identical?) effects. This suggests that OBEs and APs are more likely chemical, electrical or other “normal” body reactions than they are some fantastic force that permits one to view objects at considerable remoteness.
Stimulating the brain and causing the subject to experience unusual effects, strange memory recall and even tastes and smells is nothing new. I don’t have a cite handy, but I recall electrode-in-brain studies 50 years ago or more that did this.
Can you see that the observer (in this case, you) is not in an ideal state to make a determination as to what is happening? An altered-state brain is not functioning in a fully rational manner by definition. Using it to analyze what’s happening doesn’t seem like the most reliable tool to me.
Brains and CPUs are sometimes considered analogues, so here’s an anecdotal story. I once was given the engineering task of writing software to test the functioning of a new CPU design. The task instructed me to write code that would be executed on the same CPU that was being tested, checking internal functions. I argued that any results so obtained would not have 100% reliability since the analyzing function was being performed on an unknown-quality CPU. (We ended up attaching a second, different CPU to probe the one under test.)
Here we find ourselves in a quandary. Without knowing what constitutes the difference, if any, between dream type #1 and astral projection, which might be only dream type #2, how can we separate them? I have no doubt you feel there is something different between type 1 and 2 experiences, but does that alone mean one type is a paranormal event? And if so, which one? Could they just be variations on the dream theme? Surely not all your dreams are alike, especially after a big bowl of chilli and beans? 
We are in the same quandary that crop circle “researchers” are when they declare that circle #1 is “genuine” because the stalks are bent (or not bent) a certain way. Without solid knowledge of exactly how a “genuine” circle is made, it is only speculation on how the stalks become bent. So far, no “genuine” circle, that is, one made by supernatural forces or aliens, has been conclusively documented. And this goes for your claims as well.
Bringin back a valid list of glee’s objects would be a good start towards proving your AP conjecture. Until then, as the Scots say, I hae me doots.
Exactly.
I would add that I am confident cityboy is genuine, and that this is an interesting test for both sides.
Nobody is being asked to contribute money (just a little bandwidth!).
But why are you certain that his claims, unlike the claims of the failed thousands that have come before him, are genuine? When this test fails, are we then expected to take the claims of the next psychic wannabe the same way? And the next? And the next? At what point do we finally get to say enough is enough? After so many years of failed claims, when do we finally get to put a stop to naive “politeness” and just move on? I would say that this type of thread is like looking for the proverbial needle in the haystack, except that we have evidence that needles exist.
I’ll admit to having skimmed over the article, but it seems to ignore the fact that OBEs are not associated with REM sleep (and I’ll even go back and cite the same article again). FWIW I can personally attest that AP can occur without a dream or it can occur simultaneous with a dream - the two are obviously unrelated phenomena as they occur independently of one another.
Well it does seem to suggest that, but of course it doesn’t prove otherwise. In theory, stimulating a person’s visual cortex should produce phantom visual artifacts but that doesn’t mean vision itself is a trick of the brain. If it makes any difference, at the point where the body is relaxed enough to allow an AP state, there is a “thing” that a person “does” to induce the AP experience. It’s a particualr voluntary action that doesn’t correspond to any body part. So it’s possible that the angular gyrus is the astral body’s equivalent to a motor cortex.
Yes I can, although with AP states there doesn’t seem to be any loss in cognition other than perhaps a little drowsiness if it begins during sleep. With a dream, the experience seems normal at the time but upon awakening the subject realizes that they weren’t thinking straight. The thoughts that take place during AP still make sense when the subject remembers them during day to day life.
In this case I suppose the analogy does hold, however brains and CPUs actually fuction quite differently.
Being a bit of a computer geek myself (and 6502 assembly language programmer), I can definitely see the technical considerations in your anecdote.
Again I would refer to the cite that says OBEs do not necessarily involve REM. If I’m not mistaken, dreams always do. Other than that it seems to boil down to semantics and/or philosophy. It seems that this thread might have some relevance here.
That’s fair.
I think glee meant to say that my intentions are genuine. I don’t think he meant to imply that my claims per se are necessarily correct.
Cityboy, I’m just wondering.
Do you think, personally, that this can be explained with science, ala quantum mechanics and physics, or do you think it is some sort of new thing we’re not aware of?
If so how would all this function?
So you’re asking him to explain HOW something works that has not been shown to work AT ALL yet?
Well cityboy916 I’m on a computer that doesn’t allow multiple windows so I can’t troll for a cite for you, but the fact is that dreaming is not locked into REM. They are not requirements for each other so therefore your objection is moot. But you are right APs don’t occur within a dream, they are the dream.
Let me make an analogy. LSD, mescaline and magic mushrooms are all drugs that cause different emotional/visual hallucinations. It would be rather irratrional of me to decide that the first two are drugs but the third is a direct communication with another universe. Right? (or maybe not)
Cityboy said:
This is setting off alarms for me. I would guess that people often dream of things they desire or of things relating to recent experiences or thoughts.
So, to summarize; you were twelve and had read about AP and really wanted to have one. When you thought you did, you went to your parents who told you that you probably did.
I’ll just add this little note. The other night I woke up and was certain there was a snake in the bed. I was so certain I jumped out of bed and ripped the covers off, nearly giving my pregnant wife a coronary. The dream I had that convinced me of this was to a high degree qualitatively different than my normal dreams. The point is, a qualitative difference in dreams does not mean that one is a dream and another isn’t.
So, in my completely unqualified opinion you had a dream. And what you read and your parents’ reaction to your story only reinforced what you wanted to hear.
I’ll happily put my theory in the vertical file if you can identify glee’s desk stuff, of course.
This article that you cited and others like it I’ve read all seem to point toward the same thing. AP is not some unexplained phenomenon. It actually does exist as a process in the brain. It is different than your average dream, not only in the way it feels, but in the actual process you brain goes through. To deny that part of it is uh…kind of like shooting yourself in the foot. If the person in this article had gone on to give some information i.e., what was on top of the 8 foot tall bookcase; something impossible for her to know, it would be at least some evidence to support your beliefs. But it’s not, so arguing from any sort of scientific or physical criteria doesn’t do you any good. Quit it. The fact that it is explainable through a simple physical response is obviously going to make the first cut with the Razor and reasonably so. Too many people have theorized and tried to argue AP’s case, without any successes to back it up. You’re going to have to prove it and probably more than once, to impress this crowd. I hope you do.
No I’m not denying that the brain processes are different between AP and dreaming, just as I don’t deny that the processes between dreaming and waking are different.
You’re absolutely right. Perhaps it is best for me to wait to continue debating the case for AP as real projection until after the test completes. However I want to address opacis magi’s and CarnalK’s questions.
Thank you.
IMHO, yes it can be explained with science, since science is the study of things that exist so therefore if the “astral body” exists then one day we can hope to measure it…
My WAG - the “astral body” might be some kind of probability field for consciousness. Of course consciousness itself is another subject entirely.
Can anyone else give me a cite for that? Because if dreaming and REM don’t go hand in hand then my ignorance needs to be fought.
Is that a strawman? I didn’t say APs are a dream. Let me reiterate: AP can occur during a dream or it can occur without a dream. It’s happened to me both ways. When they occur together, I realize at the time that there is AP going on but not until later does it dawn on me that there was also a dream. They are 2 different things. Besides, according to my cite (yet again) some people project while awake.
When I see a cite for the dreaming != REM claim I will be able to address this point more thoroughly.
When you get to “astrally project” over someone’s shoulder as they’re opening the vault at the Bank of England, give me a shout.
OK cityboy916, I’m at my home comp now. The idea that REM and dreams are linked is a fallacy that has taken hold from the very early days of dream research. THE AMERICAN PSYCHOANALYTIC ASSOCIATION Link:
In the intervening 40+ years these assumptions have been abandoned by most researchers.
from the same link:
You can find more yourself with a google search on " non-rem ‘dream reports’ "
It seems to me from my readings that there are numerous cycles running at once as we sleep, perhaps interdependant but not locked together. The reason, imho, that we often get better dream reports during REM or at sleep/wake onset is because our conciousness is closest to awake state so dreams at these points are just better acknowledged.
For completeness I’ll say that for a while I was quite into “Lucid Dreaming (LDing)”. Any snippiness you see is coming from the fact that I’ve had this convo a few times on LD message boards. Apologies for any of that. When I was doing the exercises and keeping a dream diary I had 1-2 LDs/week of varying lengths. Nowadays maybe 1/3months. It is hard to describe to someone how vivid and invigorating it is to have an LD. It was so shockingly real when I hugged a long gone pet. Amazing and I can’t recommend it enough. I’ve read reports from lots people that distinguish the specific “feel” of an AP or OBE over a “regular” LD but I still think it’s all dream varieties (as do many of them->personal site link).