ancient maps

Great Debates
1

This is probably a dead horse w/ y’all, but since I’m relatively new here maybe you won’t mind too much. What is the deal regarding the accuracy and/or legitimacy of maps that have appeared from time to time which show a knowledge of earth’s geography prior to what is commonly accepted as fact.

If all are fake then I don’t see a problem. If any or even one is NOT fake, then there must be more to the story. Perhaps somebody just got lucky.

Anyway, I’m gonna hit the books on this while y’all discuss it.

Thanks

2

I do not understand what you are asking?

Are you asking if all maps produced before modern cartography was invented were faked? People made maps, they just weren’t as accurate.

Although I do recall one map of Korea which relegated Japan to a tiny island chain and China to a small corner of the world. I think the Koreans were in for a bit of a shock.

3

Sounds like the OP might be talking about that circa-15th map that shows a land mass right about where Antarctica would be (Antarctica was not discovered until 1840).

Such maps are usually touted as evidence that our ancient ancestors had contact with space aliens. :rolleyes:

4

Here’s a pic: [Here’s a theory: url=http://www.millersv.edu/~columbus/data/art/LUNDE01.ART

5

Here’s a pic:
http://www.chat4all.org/ufo/ufo_topicchats_ac000401.html

Here’s a theory:
http://www.millersv.edu/~columbus/data/art/LUNDE01.ART

6

No, I know man has been making maps ever since he picked up a stick. I’m talking about accurate maps of the planet that predate modern cartography and the relative timeframe in which they were “supposedly” made.

Okay, so I’m getting a little more specific now. There are at least a couple of maps in existence today, which have yet to be proven as fakes. They show vast regions of the earth’s surface which were uncharted supposedly at the time they were made. One map dated in the early 1500’s depicts the southern hemisphere in detail, Antarctica included. The cartographer claimed to have been a pilot with Columbus and the map was made from even older maps that Columbus had in his possession dating back to Alexander the Great. Possibly from the Library at Alexandria.
The thought of what was lost there is intriguing to me.

I’m not getting into this alien intelligence thing. I’ve been through a lot of sites w/ that line of thought. I’d rather stay away from that. This planet has enough questions w/out bringing in another.

I’m thinking more along the lines of explorers from far earlier times Ancient Greek, Egyptian, Phoenician, Sumerian, African, Chinese, Polynesian, Aboriginee, etc. Hell, I don’t know from where if at all.

I’ll get some cites and come back afterwhile. That’s why I asked, I thought maybe Y’all had been here before. It’s not a new concept, I just hadn’t really gotten into it yet.

Like I said before, it may be a bunch of B.S.
You know, food for thought. -later-

7

So, Ptolemy the Great Greek Cartographer lived in Alexandria during its height of society. He made maps for and used info. of sailors from all reaches. (Not sure how to input cites here) Anyway…he knew the earth was a sphere, but mistaken as geocentric, opposed Copernicus. Had access to library and info. from ancient sailors. His work “Geographia” huge text w/ maps, the maps all finally disappeared in time. But some copies have survived. Apparently Columbus and his pilot “Piri”? had possession of some of these accurate maps of America and the southern hemisphere dating back to Ptolemy.

Another set of maps of the northern henisphere dating back to “pre-discovery” is attributed to a group of Irish monks. These maps date back to the 10th century and claim earlier maps as reference. They depict the coastline and interior of Nth east coast of Can. and US including most of the arctic circle.

These two among a few others are authentic in date and accurate in detail and predate the discovery and exploration by known cartographers.

Okay, I can buy the idea that Ptolemy had info. from ancient sailors from all over. He had the ability and brains to compile an atlas which was remarkably accurate. He even came up with lat. & long. plus use of mercator. He sites as his reference, practically all of the known civilizations of the time.

But from whom did he acquire his knowledge of these unknown lands?

8

Actually, we have had several threads addressing or commenting on the Piri Reis map (some of them rather tangentially):

The Piri Reis map and earth crust displacement

Question about early maps (ca. 1500AD)

In 1485 Columbus sailed the ocean blue?

Massive iceberg breaks off Antartica

Why do circles have 360 degrees (Only a single post)

And, without mentioning Piri Reis, another point on Antarctica:
Atlantis is South America

And this beauty:
120 million year old map of the Earth?

9

Ptolemy’s maps showed no specific detail about the Americas. You’re undoubtedly referring to the Piri Reis map, ca 1500. Sugaree’s second link does a quite thorough job explaining/debunking any connection between this map and ‘ancient civilizations’.

There’s also a short mention of the legend of Saint Brandon, the Irish monk you’re thinking of. Its somewhat (barely) credible that someone from Ireland made it to the northeast coast of North America in medieval times, but there’s little evidence and no maps that survived.

10

I see tomndebb beat me to the punch, with discussion links even. Kudos.

11

I see that, unlike squeegee, you didn’t even click on the links I gave, t-keela. You hurt me, man, you hurt me. :slight_smile: They deal with the Piri Reis map, the one you are describing right here.

Can you supply a picture of this, or describe it in more detail? It sounds like it could be a confused version of the Vinland map, which is discussed a little in the “In 1485, Columbus sailed…” link that Tom supplied. In that link, bibliophage links to a great page run by the Viking Answer Lady, who discusses it and much other cool stuff in more detail.

12

Perhaps t-keela is thinking of the medieval maps that show ‘St. Brendan’s Island’.

http://www.eaudrey.com/myth/Places/saint_brendan.htm

Hardly evidence of great cartographical accuracy.

13

Hey guys, 'preciate the input. I’ve been through most of the cites y’all refer to. I see now that there’s a lot of whacks out there on this. Ptolemy apparently did have some pretty bad maps floating around out there. It’s a shame we don’t have more originals of his stuff because there’s a lot of referencing to him.

I realize now that many references are to the style of map though and not necessarily to Ptolemy himself.

Henry-Davis.com has a pretty good collection of maps and text at

http:www.henry-davis.com/MAPS/Ren/Ren1/322mono.html

Still not sure about how to cite and quote, Please be patient w/ me.

Tom, I recognize some of the cites you link and am fixin’ to check them out as well. Seems like they were from the point of view of some far-fetched/flung “science”.

There’s apparently something wrong w/ my PC (too slow or my server’s overloaded, maybe this site! I don’t know I’ve had problems w/ the board) Sorry, don’t mean to get off track. But, some of the links I’ve tried, don’t. Often I can’t get back online and SDMB won’t load or post. That’s why I seem to be running behind here.

I found Piri’s map to be quite accurate, his explanation of it is very interesting…BUT is it a fake! I tought he was considered reputable. I especially like the part where he describes accounts of Arab sailors having been to South America before Columbus. I’ve yet to find an authentic, scientific, invalidation of Piri, despite the kooks that only make him look less credible. Doesn’t mean there’s not, I just haven’t seen it yet.

Apparently SDMB has discussed this before, GREAT I’m going there now.

(I need to figure out how to quote y’all’s stuff, so I can refer to each.)

I’m not in any way implying that anyone other than man is responsible for any maps that MIGHT be considered advanced. I’m just curious as to if and from whom. Sounds kinda weak, don’t it.
Guy’s if I’m tiltin’ windmills tell me. I hate wastin’ time looking for Eldorado. -later-

14

Look no further!

15

The argument is not about whether the Piri Reis map is a fake - everyone accepts that it’s genuine - but rather whether it shows Antartica. As this article, which sugaree has already posted above shows, there are good reasons for thinking that it doesn’t.

http://www.millersv.edu/~columbus/data/art/LUNDE01.ART

16

I wasn’t really questioning Piri’s map as much as whether or not there is any reliable, documented evidence regarding his and other people’s claims of even older maps. I don’t think I brought Antarctica into this originally.

I’m trying to dodge that damned Hapgood, he f***s-up everything he puts his name on.

Apparently there is no solid evidence, according to Dopers, of maps or advanced knowledge prior to modern cartography. That’s cool…I figure if there was y’all would have found it. That’s why I asked in the first place.

A joke: http://www.anomalies-unlimited.com/Ajoke.html
think I’ll go visit my friend Jose’ for awhile:cool: