I’ll frankly state that I don’t know. I am completely ignorant of the details of the contract between the police union and the city. I am simply stating that the actions of those police were insubordinate.
I don’t know if, under the contract, that is an offense subject to termination. Do you?
(I’ll add that, in general, I find it extremely amusing how so many people who hate unions think that the unions of police officers are the bee’s knees. At least Coolidge didn’t find them any different.)
No and no.
Thanks for fighting my ignorance. I should have paid closer attention.
From the clips I saw it looked memorial services I saw a few years back for two local police officers who were shot in my town. Their services were held one after the other at a big civic center.
OH, but even still, I don’t think a governor can fire teachers. I’m sure this varies by state, but teachers are generally hired by their local school districts and aren’t in the “chain of command” to the governor.
I’m not seeing what unions have to do with it. I was more talking about the whole “disrespect of authority” and “insubordination” thing that has been running thru this thread. My analogy probably fails because soldiers turning their backs on the CiC when in uniform probably could be subject to disciplinary action, but where would the general sentiment of this MB fall in the case I offered up? Not with Bush, I can tell you that!
Point being, this isn’t about some principle, but about this particular issue and what side of the argument you fall on. In that case, just say so. Don’t hide behind “disrespecting authority”. I, for one, have little respect for authority figures in the first place. I just don’t like turning someone’s funeral into a political event.
That was when dissent was the highest form of patriotism.
Oh, and good luck to those wishing to fire 500 NY police officers.
The cops who turned their backs to their boss obviously disagree with you.
The mayor of NYC is a politician. Police officers, firemen, office workers, heathcare professionals, sanitation workers, professional athletes, dock workers, artists, teachers, stock brokers, tourists, bartenders, etc. can all turn their backs on the mayor/politician whenever they feel like it.
It’s still political free speech.
It’s not as if the police are not doing their jobs. The job of police officer does not include looking at a mayor.
There is NO rule, regulation, by-law, in-law, outlaw, city, county, or state law that demands, or requires, that citizens, voters, residents, visitors, or illegal aliens MUST LOOK AT THE MAYOR under penalty of law.
Do people actually expect De Blasio to fire, or otherwise discipline, NYC employees because they won’t look at him? Seriously? What’s next, genuflecting when they see De Blasio’s fedora on a pole in Time Square?
Are you aware that the Supreme Court has upheld punishments against police officers and other public servants for speech that impedes the efficient functioning of government?
Yes, he is. Nevertheless, he is also the boss of the New York police department. The members of the NYPD are government employees.
Are you aware that government employees are limited in the areas and manners in which they may express their politically oriented free speech?
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It’s not considered insubordinate for city employees to vote for or against De Blasio unless insubordination has some other meaning in your world. It’s not insubordinate for city employees to refuse to look upon the De Basio. It’s still a political free speech issue.
Insubordination -
the refusal to obey someone who is in a higher position than you and who has the authority to tell you what to do:
Has De Blasio ordered all police officers to always look at him, even when the De Blasio is only a projection on a TV screen?
This is your big chance to provide details.
True.
And if there was a Nice Long 20-mile Parade down 5th Avenue, and every civilian turned their backs when any police group or marching band came by, I wonder how out-of-step they’d feel then? Hey, its still political free speech.
One mayor or some city council? Bah. Twenty people. Eight Million People turning their backs or swinging the cameras the other way? Maybe, just MAYBE… they’d f-cking get it.
Then they could internally “code red” their hot-heads in-line or out to pasture, whichever they see fit.
You’re a fucking moron.
Yes, it would be free speech. People would be free to stay home, go to your parade, turn their backs, clap their hands, or do the Hokey Pokey. It will be interesting to see you get 8,000,000,000 New Yorkers to do anything together. But don’t stop dreaming.
Was it actually insubordination? Were they actually told they had to face the mayor as he walked past?
I think you’re dialling down the action to the most literal sense. As I understand it, those who decry the cops’ actions aren’t saying that literally not looking at De Blasio at all times is insubordinate, but that the purpose behind it was to show their lack of respect for him.
Or, put another way, it isn’t insubordinate for an infantryman in the military to open his mouth and make noises with it. But it could if those words were curses directed at a superior officer. It isn’t insubordinate for an office worker to stand in one place. But it could be if by doing so they ignore their bosses’ clear attempts to speak to them. Likewise, it isn’t insubordinate for city employees to refuse to upon De Blasio. But it could be if that takes the form of turning their backs on him so as to show disrespect (I don’t personally have a dog in this fight, but that is, as I understand it, the point of argument of the anti-back-turning posters).
Reducing it to the literal action is silly, though.
By this definition, so long as the order is followed, any additional action may be taken. So, for example, if an officer tells a soldier to go do something, and the soldier says “Certainly, fuckhead! It’d be my pleasure!” and goes off to do it, then there would be no insubordination. Or slaps him in the face and goes off to do it.
It would also mean insubordination was only possible where orders had been given.
Firing cops for turning their back in protest is not part of the solution to this problem. Cops who instigated this kind of behavior are in order for some discipline, but good luck identifying any of those. This is all a power move from the leadership outside the force. This mayor is a one-termer, maybe the next guy can do better.
What “infantryman” turned their back on the De Blasio? This isn’t a military issue, is it?
If the whiners aren’t whining about the physical act of police turning their backs towards the De Blasio, then they are acting as self-ordained thought-police. You will not have bad thoughts about the De Blasio OR YOU WILL BE FIRED.
I’m not seeing anything like that happening in the near, or distant, future.
There are lots of thins one can do that are perfectly legal that can get you fired. Being insubordinate and disrespectful to one’s superiors is one. It may not be illegal to cock your leg and fart in your boss’ face, but I don’t think your job would be there much longer.