Well, this is the same guy who wanted to post the 10 Commandments in a public building, but couldn’t name more than 3 of them himself.
Okay, if I can read any book I want in the US but I can’t read some of those books in China, what do you call that?
Oh, if you can hear the word on TV in the exact some context it’s used by young people all over the place, then I think there’s a very valid argument for “why can’t I use it in the same context?”
It’s not like Bart Simpson being a smartass and saying “bitch” because it’s a female dog. It’s pretty obvious he’s being a smartass.
I’m not at all big on this “we can use the word amongst ourselves, but you can’t.” It’s bullshit. If I use queer or fag around people who aren’t gay I can’t blame them for thinking it’s cool now. You’re just playing a control game. “We can use the word but you can’t, and we’re gonna use it right in front of you, nyah, nyah!”
OtakuLoki, I wanted to add that I don’t want you to think that I don’t get where you’re coming from. I do (note my post where I express a desire for blacks to not use “nigger,” “nigga,” etc. in the presence of non-blacks), but there’s really nothing that you can do about it.
It might be interesting, though (and permissable, I think), when you find yourself in those situations, to ask, “Don’t you feel uncomfortable using that language in the presence of someone who’s not part of your group?”
I would agree that the rules should be “the same” for everyone, but I think many folks are looking at the rules in the wrong way. The rules are based in “in group” and “out group,” not on race. Race is an inadvertant set of baggage based in American history that confuses the issue.
It is not true that if it is OK for a black person to use the word “nigger,” then it is OK for a white person to use the word “nigger.”
However, it is true that it is not automatic racism for a white to use the word “nigger.” OTOH, there is a definitely strong need for specific context before it stops being racism.
Let’s step away from race for a moment. In the 1960s in Detroit, the ethnic groups in the white community that were the butts of the most jokes were the descendants of Italian and Polish immigrants. I had lots of classmates whose parents or grandparents were immigrants from Italy or Poland. The derogatory “Wop” and “Polack” were the most frequent ethnic slurs for those people. Now, you could get a fight going pretty easily by calling someone “Wop” or “Polack,” whereas calling me (or anyone sharing my ethnic background) “Kraut” or “Mick” would get no more than a shrug and a “Yeah, I am, so what?” response.
So, there are some ethnic terms that can rile up people because they have current meaning as slurs while other ethnic terms carry no such baggage.*
Within those communities, a number of people used the terms as friendly insults, employing the logic and practice of drawing the sting from an insult by employing it as a joke. Occasionally they were employed ironically. At other times they were used as actual insults in the sense that You are so bad/dumb/messed up that you actually provide evidence for those outsiders who regard us in this hateful way. Still others within those communities always regarded such terms as insults, regardless who used them or why, and treated the words as taboo, prohibited from any use.
Given that, it was still true that I could get away with calling Stan or Luigi “Polack” or “Wop” as long as they knew and I knew that it was intended as friendly banter. (They had no ethnic slur to use against me, so they were liable to resort to questioning my intelligence or parentage or sexual identity, but within the realm of friendly banter, I had an insult that I could employ without serious offense.)
Thus, we do need to consider context as a mitigating factor. I might call Stan a dumb Polack, but I had better not call him that in front of his Dad (unless I had also established a similar level of friendship and respect with his father). I would certainly have been excoriated had I referred to Polacks or Wops if I was making a speech or being interviewed. Such general slurs would have been considered grossly rude behavior in any context outside the friendly banter of established friendships. Similarly, if I used such a slur to a friend (acceptably to them) in a locale where it would have been overheard by some person outside our cohort, I would have been perceived to have been rude. When a new person entered our class, I often saw situations where the use of such slurs, long accepted by the principals, was hostilely challenged by the newcomer.
Bringing it back to “race” and “nigger,” we see the same rules. Some significant number of persons (of all ethnic backgrounds) look at the history of the word “nigger” and consider it outside the pale on every occasion. Some others, mostly within the population of blacks, but occasionally including a non-black who has established a friendship with some number of blacks, employ it as a way to display the comfort level of their friendship (we are such close friends that I can even call you a terrible name without giving offense). On the other hand, no one outside the group–or who has not been admitted to some small, friendly subset of the group) can employ the word without giving offense.
I disagree that no white person may ever use “nigger” without being racist, but all the calls for "equality’ or “the same rules” are really pretty dumb unless one has actually established a relationship with a particular set of individuals who accept one’s use of the term. (And, if there does not happen to be a reciprocal slur that people can employ against the speaker, that just demonstrates that there is not perfect reciprocity in the world.)
- It is quite possible that “Mick” or “Kraut” might have been an insult in another locale–meanings do have geographic boundaries–but they bore no such stigma in 1960s Detroit.
*How *is it bullshit? It’s reality. *I *can call my best friend “Bitch” like it’s her name. If *you *call my best friend “Bitch”, I will cut you. I would not consider calling *your *friend “Asshole” unless I was looking for a fight. This is how the world works.
Like Lil’ Pluck, I cringe every time I hear the word nigger used in the context I’ve described. I hate it. But I acknowledge the precedent.
Damn you, DianaG, I almost swallowed my cigarette! 
And what you said is true: My best-girlfriend and I call each other “bitch,” “cunt,” and “whore” as if we were each other’s mamas, but that’s only for us and a *very few *others who are close to us. Anyone else? It’s “Li’l Pluck” and “Li’l Pluck’s best friend”.
I’ll never understand why this is so difficult for people to process.
My mileage varies like hell. I will never understand people telling me I can’t use nigga.
It has a meaning that the hip-hop generation considers its own. It is ours to do with as we please. We have never used the word to lynch, oppress, rape, enslave or rob another of their human rights.
And that is just the word, ‘nigga’. Let’s talk about the word ‘nigger’. I can say it whenever I want. In the words of the funny ass comedian Paul Mooney, “Nigger. Niggerniggerniggerniggernigger. I say it several times a day. Makes my teeth white.”
If you* think, that just because I am comfortable using a word that a bunch of racists created to try and hurt and oppress my people, that it is not ok for me to feel a little tension in the air when you try to use it around me, then that is just not realistic, to me.
- you = any white person.
Bear with me, please.
Yes. I made the cardinal error. I stopped ignoring the elephant in the room.
I made it clear that for a number of reasons I believe that nigger is not in the same class as asshole or bitch. Nigger is in a special category. AIUI there are even Federal laws that make many uses of the word a crime above and beyond whatever initial crime might have been being committed. Which is not the case for bitch nor asshole. The only other words I can think of with similar legal penalties are all words describing protected groups.
Again, I believe that the word nigger does deserve this special treatment.
I happen to think that good strategy would be to end the in-group exclusion for nigger. And that was all I’d meant to say or imply. I’m not about to go around confronting every African-Amercan using the word and tell them that they can’t use it. It’s not a decision that can be imposed outside of the in-group.
But, to get back to the whole invisible elephant idea, I don’t see where it’s improper in a discussion about the in-group exclusion to mention that the exclusion seems to weaken the idea that the word is in a category beyond more normal insults.
No. Actually I can’t. If people are discoursing in loud tones at the bus stop, or on the bus, I have little choice but to hear it.
On preview: I see you’ve softened your response to me, Li’l Puck. Thanks. I agree I cannot make anyone change. Nor am I trying to impose a change on anyone’s speech patterns. I just wanted to suggest a tactical view that sometimes seems to get lost in the debate.
As for your suggestion about how to confront the people I do meet who do use the word in mixed company - I really don’t think it would go any better than my attempt here did. Your first reaction was pretty hostile, including assuming I want to use nigger, and then a lecture on manners. And you’d already said that you see tactical reasons for amending the speech patterns.
I doubt that things would go any better in person.
OtakuLoki,
HUH?! 
Where in any of my posts did I assume, imply, or even outright state that you wanted to use the word “nigger”? That’s highly unlikely, sir, considering that you very clearly wrote–and I saw the first time around–“I have no desire to use the word”. Now, I know that there are people on the SDMB who sometimes have difficulty reading for comprehension, but I try really hard (and, I think, mostly successfully) to not be one of them.
I will, however, stand corrected if you can show me a post in this discussion, where I’ve addressed you or anything you’ve said, where I failed in that regard.
And how was my first response to you hostile? Granted, I did say, “I mean, really, is it that difficult blah-blah-blah,” and perhaps it is that which you interpreted as hostility. If that is that case, I assure you that my choice of words was meant less to convey hostility than beffudlement.
And no, I most certainly don’t think you ought to go around confronting every black person who uses that word in your presence. I mean, hell, *I’m *black, and I don’t confront, for instance, the kids and adults that I hear using it on the New York City subway in mixed company (though I DO sometimes entertain fantasies of smacking the black right off of them). I was thinking more in terms of black people with whom you are acquainted and, presumably, comfortable enough to broach the subject. I tend to think that fostering some conversation–or, rather, attempting to foster some conversation–is better than seething internally.
There was once a time when I would have questioned the apologetics of this post. I would have asked for further clairafication of the “hip-hop generation” that you are asking for exceptions for and whether this group should be considered multiracial with common group values and behaviors or if “hip-hop generation” was simply used as a euphamism for modern african-americans. I would have asked if it is perfectly ok for White Chocolate to walk up and say “Whassup my niggas?” as a casual greeting amongst a group of black folk who may or may not know him but recognise his hip-hop lifestyle choice by behavior, dress, music or any other outward sign.
This would have been before I spent an extended amount of time, shall we say, in the company of an exclusive and decidedly racially mixed group of men. It was within this setting that I discovered, even with total acceptance and lack of animosity, White Chocolate is annoying as fuck.
Case in point. Talking with WC, about every fifth word was nigga. “Nigga, you shoulda seen that nigga run, nigga. Dat nigga was the fastest dam nigga I ever seen, nigga.” And this went on endlessly because WC was present and accounted for due to his taste for meth and lack of judgement in carrying it around in his car. After a couple of days I found myself annoyed enough to look at him and say “Dude, look down, look down there. See all that white shit down there? See it? That’s your arm man. You’re white. Hell, you’re whiter than me. Please stop saying nigga every other word. The other black people may not mind so much but I do.” He didn’t say much around me for the rest of my “vacation” and nobody else ever said anything one way or the other.
So yeah, african-americans can have their exception as far as I’m concerned. And if that exception extends to a broader group of the hip-hop generation then so be it. The only time I ever plan on using that word is to make fun of ignorant white people (hip-hop or red-neck, doesn’t matter) by showing them how asinine their ignorance really is and how much that word annoys the shit out of me when white people say it.
Are there any negative adjectives that can be applied to a black man by a white man that CAN’T be construed as racist?
Let’s name some.
Well, it seems to be all about exclusion and putting up walls, and maintaining our “groups.” Way to fight the power, nig… uh, dudes.
You didn’t ask, but what the hell; Hip hop generation means many things, but in the context of my post, it meant black people that grew up in the 80s and embraced (and created!) the hip-hop music and culture and language.
I am not asking for an ‘exception’ for them. We use the word all the time, we don’t need permission.
But for the record, your post left me in a gale of giggles. I was only expressing that I still have a strange sensation of… I don’t know…weirdness when a white person uses the word.
Nig? The word is Nigger. Nigger! niggerniggerniggerniggernigger! Ha! It’s fun!
White people who use the word usually have many giggle-worthy characteristics: saggy pants, sideways baseball hat, and bling (all bought by mom). To go along with it, they usually have a sub-80 IQ and track marks.
Then again, black people who use the word usually don’t have much going for them either.
Hmm.
Wait. I didn’t mean I was laughing at nd_n8; I meant I thought the joke he cracked up thread was funny. I was laughing with him.
I’m sure I’m going to regret participating in this hijack, but don’t you recognize your own aggression in flaunting the word? Ha, ha, yes, all in jest, quite jolly, but there’s quite an undertone of anger there. You may claim your usage is all innocent and carefree, never used to “oppress” anyone, but surely you recognize that the “tension” also goes the other way?
What I won’t believe is a claim that there isn’t any anger there in using the word in jest. It’s funny because it’s not a neutral word like, say, “sandwich”. Saying “sandwichsandwichsandwich” would get boring quickly. But the nervous titters you hear when saying “nnn*****” arise from discomfort, and purposely making people uncomfortable is aggression.
On the other hand, you can claim quite rightly that the anger (and perhaps the aggression) is justified, justified to a degree that I as a white person will never understand. Fine. But then you’re as much as admitting that you’re also using an ugly word as a weapon, and the only germane point is how justified you feel in using it that way.
If true, it’s probably because most conservatives are watching reruns of Matlock, where nothing offensive or even modern ever occurs.
I freely admit that I feel a certain ‘tension’ when white folks say it.
The ‘niggerniggernigger’ is in homage to a comedian that I love alot. Sorry. No pent up rage. White people are going to have to accept that uttering that word doesn’t shred black folks to shreds inside the way it used to. Accept it.
Davis is less than three years older than Obama. And referring to anyone as a “boy” is derisive, even without a racist component. I’m a white adult man, and if someone only three years older than me calls me a “boy”, that’s fighting words.
I think it was also very stupid of him to criticize a potential president publically for something that happened during a “highly classified, national security simulation”.