No, you may think I’m full of shit but I’m not kidding you. A student expects factual information from a teacher.
I can remember when I was in junior high, the gym teacher gave us this line of bullshit about how deadly athletes foot was in an attempt to get the kids to improve their hygene. At least 75% of the class knew he was full of shit, the rest suspected, and I never believed anything he said again.
Touche.
This goes to my earlier point that the Santa myth is bad for poor children. If a child gets crummy presents, he shouldn’t be made to feel worse by telling him, “Well, Santa gives good presents to good little girls and boys.”
The following, from A Tree Grows in Brooklyn, pretty much sums up my opinion on the matter.
“Oh, and you must not forget the Kris Kringle. The child must believe in him until she reaches the age of six.”
“Mother, I know there are no ghosts or fairies. I would be teaching the child foolish lies.”
Mary spoke sharply. “You do not know whether there are not ghosts on earth or angels in heaven.”
“I know there is no Santa Claus.”
“Yet you must teach the child that these things are so.”
“Why? When I, myself, do not believe?”
“Because,” explained Mary Rommely simply, “the child must have a valuable thing which is called imagination. The child must have a secret world in which live things that never were. It is necessary that she believe. She must start out by believing in things not of this world. Then, when the world becomes too ugly for living in, the child can reach back and live in her imagination. I, myself, even in this day and at my age, have great need of recalling the miraculous lives of the saints and the great miracles that have come to pass on earth. Only by having these things in my mind can I live beyond what I have to live for.”
“The child will grow up and find out things for herself. She will know I lied. She will be disappointed.”
“That is what is called learning the truth. It is a good thing to learn the truth one’s self. To first believe with all your heart, and then not to believe, is good, too. It fattens the emotions and makes them to stretch. When as a woman life and people disappoint her, she will have had practice in disappointment and it will not come as hard. In teaching your child, do not forget that suffering is good too. It makes a person rich in character.”
Suffice it to say, I agree with the OP.
Everyone’s household traditions are different. Everyone should have a right to observe their own. Believe it or not, Santa can be as much fun for adults as it is for the kids…especially when you’re able to pass on traditions that your parents did with you. What kind of ass would deliberately spoil that for a family and for parents looking forward to sharing that kind of tradition with their child? If you don’t agree with it – fine! Don’t tell your child. But don’t interfere with other people’s family traditions. It’s not all about the gifts.
Bah, and humbug to the twit.
Guilt is a powerful tool in child-rearing. The fact that many parents feel that it’s a bad thing for their children to feel guilty is responsible for many problems with young people these days, in my humble opinion.
Is there a Santa Claus? Gotta go to the source, folks.
Self-loathing six-year-olds portrayed as a good thing? How intriguing.
What I’m talking about is not parents trying to guilt their children into acting better; What I’m talking about is parents who can’t get their child a $90 Harry Potter Lego set, causing the child to feel- not guilty per se, but that there is something wrong with them. Society placing value judgements on someone based on their possesions should wait until they are old enough to provide for themself.
Grendel72, your arguments are reasonable and logical, but not all encompassing. What about the case of some lucky kid whose folks cam afford that Lego set - what’s the harm in him believing in Santa? Isn’t that the parents choice?
What is the case, across the board, is that it’s not a decision for a teacher to revoke. There are many people out there who believe Christianity to be a similar myth, I’m one of them, but I’d be angered if a teacher started to tell children that.
Again - we are talking about a teacher taking it upon himself to tell a class of students the truth about Santa, not cheating in relationships.
Nice strawman though.
Like I said earlier [smartass]I bet the Menendez brothers got some cool shit from Santa when they were little.[/smartass]
To be fair and answer your question, certainly it’s a parent’s choice to tell their kids Santa is real, I just don’t think it’s that big a deal if a teacher answers a student’s question. Should he have changed the subject? Yes. Should he be burned at the stake? No.
But Please tell the kids there is no Carrottop!
The teacher seems to have made a pretty bad error of judgment, but worse judgment has been shown by the parents who saw red, the system that apparently dismissed the teacher, and above all the media that published the teacher’s name (unless consent was given). The teacher’s gaffe does not warrant the resultant public exposure and the possible loss of livelihood.
According to the report I read*, [list=1][li]She (yes, it is a female; why did people assume it was a man?) usually teaches high school.[]She is a casual teacher, (one not employed on a permanent basis; this could mean anything from one or two days to full time without tenure).[]It was her first day teaching the little kids. [/list=1][/li]
I don’t know the teacher. She could be a crazy idealogue with no sense of fantasy, let alone an appreciation of the societal beliefs that surround Christmas, but she might also have a host of good teaching qualities that I don’t know about, and I’m pretty sure the parents would not know about either. They could easily have told another white lie to cover their favoured Santa Claus lie (‘Mrs ______ was only joking, Natalie, don’t worry about it. Santa will come this year…’) No, it seems they had to react in horror, and convince the kids that an unthinkable crime had been committed upon them. We all know how children see themselves when they imagine that someone has done something disgusting to them, don’t we? (Actually, I don’t, but it seems to be pretty bad.)
It really rankles me to see such a stink made about the honest expression of an idea, when other behaviour, such as sarcasm, passionless teaching, or school systems that happily place teachers in areas outside their area of expertise are accepted without comment. It never makes the news that many students do not like mathematics or Shakespeare, for example, but if they are told that Santa does not exist, all Hell breaks loose. What next, a president that lies about his sex life?
*I have not posted a link, because I don’t want the teacher’s name spread any further. The facts reported are not crucial to the main issue: How terrible is it for a teacher to tell year 1 children that there is no Santa Claus? We can discuss the possible mitigating factors that might apply hypothetically.
So let me see if I’m understanding you all.
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Santa Claus is a myth that parents have the right to tell their children is true and teachers have no place telling the kids that it isn’t true.
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Divine Creation may/may not be a myth that parents have the right to tell their children is the truth and teachers are expected to tell the kids that it isn’t true - teaching evolution.
How does it follow that teachers are allowed to debunk one myth and not another?
*For the record I do not teach my child that Santa is alive and doing all these magical things but I am teaching her that there was such a person (no magic though) and we are supposed to emulate the actions, but not necessarily by giving toys. I also believe in divine creation followed by evolution.
For the record, that is your choice and your right just as it is my right to have played along with the Santa myth. No one, expecially a teacher, has the right to overstep the boundries in what family traditions I choose for my kids.
Following Dave’s post, I did a search on a news site, and discovered that the teacher is indeed female (the original article I posted didn’t say), and quotes the mother of eight year old Alex as saying
which kind of puts a dampener on the theory that she was asked.
None of the news sites I checked mention that it was her first day, but that makes no difference to me. Teachers aren’t thrown in to the deep end. On top of their schooling, they serve time as student teachers before graduating. Even if it was her first day, she had served time in a classroom before, and she had years of training behind her. She didn’t make a slip of the tongue, she offered the information to the children listening to a Christmas story. Now, I don’t have a degree to teach primary school children, but I wouldn’t tell someone else’s kids that Santa isn’t real because I know that’s not my place. So do most of the other people here whether they believe telling your children about Santa is wrong or right - and who even wants to be the person to shatter a young child’s illusions? She obviously doesn’t have a grain of common sense. I wouldn’t want someone like that teaching my children, and I can understand the parents being irate and determined that she’s not welcome back at their school. I have no problem with the media publishing her name - why should she be sheltered? Our actions have consequences - hers weren’t criminal and won’t lead to prosecution, but they were wrong and because of her the parents have to deal with the aftermath. I see nothing wrong with letting this follow her around so she shares the misery. I’m sure to enter dangerous ground if I continue sharing my views on actions and consequences; suffice to say I think too many people are protected from the results of their own actions and it’s not necessarily a good thing.
To me, she took a group of innocent children, and ruined the magic of Christmas for them forever. Sure, Christmas is still fun, but I remember Christmases when I thought Santa was real, and looking back now I think it was extra special. I’m thankful to my parents for giving me those wonderous, magical early Christmases and I look back on my childhood with fondness. If I were a parent, and if my child had been in that library on that day, I would have been so upset to think that someone else thoughtlessly and needlessly took from my child what I value so much in my own history. I don’t think I would be able to forgive her and I know I would be angry, and I would demand that she never be allowed near my child again. Childhood is such a wonderful time and it is so fleeting. I don’t want my (imaginary) kids to grow up too quickly, and I want them to enjoy believing in magic as long as they can. And I don’t want teachers, substitute or otherwise, working against me and what I want for my children.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by grendel72 *
**
Yeah, when you were in Junior High. You weren’t six. And you never believed anything he said again? So if he said these are the rules for whatever game you were playing you didn’t believe him? Or when he said this is the proper way to do a situp or pushup you didn’t believe him? Or when he said that exercise was good for you you didn’t believe him? Please. I sense hyperbole.
And I can code properly. Will someone fix that, por favor? Much appreciated.
You wouldn’t find it incredulous that I didn’t believe him about exercise if you could see the size of my ass.
Seriously, I don’t think it’s a good idea for teachers to tell falsehoods to students. For a teacher to do their job, a student has to know that what they are telling them is the truth.
The fact is that both children and adults believe in fantasy - and each person’s fantasies are intensely personal. And fantasies come in all forms from Santa Claus to ideas about one’s own personal attractiveness, intelligence, or effectiveness. Which of us has the right to insist that another person face the “truth”?
I believe you’d find that many kids do know that Santa is a myth, but enjoy playing the game.
Do you read fiction? Are you involved in RPGs? Do you play SIMS? If you don’t, do you have the right to deride those who indulge in those fantasies?
A teacher is supposed to be more that a fountain of facts. A teacher places him/herself in the position of role model. This guy’s model is arrogance bordering on mental cruelty.
All of you males out there must certainly be aware that you’d never get to first base with whatever superstar happens to turn you on so you must immediatly stop fantasizing about her and replace her in your mind with Eleanor Roosevelt - a woman who is worthy of your admiration.
And you women, forget Brad Pitt, and save your sighs for someone like Alan Greenspan - a “real” mover and shaker.
Responsible parents who have given their toddlers the gift of the Santa game, will debunk it gently when the time is right. Let them handle their own family culture and icons.