"And these are the kind of things that men do."

In My Humble Opinion
21

If you define “jollies” as satisfying their male ego, a lust for power, wealth and/or status, then, yes. Women have been basically chattel for much of history, weren’t they, levdrakon? Look how long it took them to get the vote!

This site lists the 100 “most important women in history” and only 10 are heads of state and just three were aggressive empire builders. It’s the male who is famous for his aggression. “Girls just wanna have fun.” They’re more likely to form a consensus on goals, form a plan of action in committee and nurture participants along the way. That’s what DeeDee Myers’ book is all about.

Did you misunderstand me, or did I misunderstand you?

22

[QUOTE=Skald the Rhymer]
If you’re on a sinking ship, you damn well better let the kids get on the lifeboats first. Because that’s what men do, and if you don’t, you’re not a guy I want around.
[/QUOTE]
Oh good, a chance to tell one of my favorite jokes.

A ship was sinking, and the captain noticed that they didn’t have enough room in the lifeboats, so he needed to get four men to stay behind. He talked to a German, an Englishman, an American and a Japanese.

To the German, the captain told him that it was a rule that the men stay behind.

To the Englishman, the captain told him that gentlemen stay behind.

To the American, the captain said he would be a hero if he stayed behind.

Then he went to the Japanese and told him everyone else was staying behind.

23

[QUOTE=TokyoPlayer]
Oh good, a chance to tell one of my favorite jokes.

A ship was sinking, and the captain noticed that they didn’t have enough room in the lifeboats, so he needed to get four men to stay behind. He talked to a German, an Englishman, an American and a Japanese.

To the German, the captain told him that it was a rule that the men stay behind.

To the Englishman, the captain told him that gentlemen stay behind.

To the American, the captain said he would be a hero if he stayed behind.

Then he went to the Japanese and told him everyone else was staying behind.
[/QUOTE]

Thanks for sharing that TP. I have a great deal of respect for the Japanese as a people, I learned a lot from a book called Hagakure:the book of the Samurai. Only one caste of people but it gave me a good taste overall. Heck, I lots of respect for all the countrys in your joke. I’m hoping that after the election I can get back some I lost for my own country.

24

[QUOTE=Myself]

This site lists the 100 “most important women in history” and only 10 are heads of state and just three were aggressive empire builders.

[/QUOTE]

Which three are you talking about? Thatcher wasn’t an empire builder, but she was no shrinking violet. She pretty much crushed the unions in the UK.

25

[QUOTE=Skald the Rhymer]
Per request by Sunspace, here is the thread on proper behavior of men.

, and the meaning I choose to put into it is working for the perpetuation and prosperity of our progeny. Thus I believe in approaching morality largely from an evolutionary-benefits point of view So one thing I believe that (married) men should do is put the safety and well-being of their wives and minor children ahead of their own. That means you do not abuse your wife, physically, sexually, or otherwise. You do not hit your wife, unless doing so is necessary to protect your child. If your family is in danger, you protect them in preference to yourself (unless sacrificing yourself actually increases the danger to the majority of the group). And this obligation extends to other people’s minor children in their parents’ absence. If you’re on a sinking ship, you damn well better let the kids get on the lifeboats first. Because that’s what men do, and if you don’t, you’re not a guy I want around.

Anybody else?
[/QUOTE]

I dont go for the “Our Morality should be based on evolutionary benefits” credo.
If you are an Existentalist the coming into existance of humankind was a random,meaningless event.

So in real terms the perpetuation of the the genetic code that makes up our species or the cessation of,is equally unimportant
When I die the universe ends as far as I’m concerned so I will not know or care if my genes are still extant.

Actually with the world population explosion no matter how many situations that arise where a mans selfishness,cowardice or survival instinct cause others to live or to die its not going to even seriously dent the Human races numbers let alone cause us to become extinct.
So even on that level the philosophy doesn’t work.
Nuclear War or an asteroid impact yes,sinking ship no.

I would only give up my life for others out of love,love of my SO,children or close family not out of ethics.
As to abuse,physically,sexually or otherwise of your wife or your children I would like to remind people that wives have been as guilty as men in this respect though men are a lot less likely to even tell anyone about it let alone report it because of the embarrassment/shame factor.

What you mean to say big hulking men have been subjected to domestic violence and psychological bullying by little weak women?
AND in significant numbers?
Yes I do!

Before people start thinking NO I haven’t been a victim myself,but being a man i would say that wouldn’t I?
Any ethical law proposed that coincidently favours the proposers group I view as rationalisation,even if the proposer isn’t consciously aware of it themselves.

It reminds me of those games where people have to justify their not being thrown out of the balloon to lighten the load.

"Oh no not me I’m a doctor "
“Oh no not me I’m an entertainer who brings pleasure to millions”

And so on.
It amuses me that the double standards are still up and running even in this day and age of so called equality.
Yes I DO believe that women should have the same pay,opportunities and promotions as men.
But I also believe that women should be expected to share equally in dangerous jobs/situations and work in similar proportions numberwise in the dirty,nasty jobs like sewage workers or garbage men or on landfill .

You cant be hard nosed achievers in the workplace when the money suits you but delicate little flowers when its time to actually assault on foot the bad guys or to drown in freezing waters when the ship goes down.
Saying that I have met many tough,brave and selfless women in certain proffessions but their mind set is by no means universal.

26

[QUOTE=Skald the Rhymer]
You do not hit your wife, unless doing so is necessary to protect your child.
[/QUOTE]

And vice versa? :slight_smile:

27

[QUOTE=DianaG]
Howsabout we go with “All adults should behave responsibly and decently. It’s not okay to abuse anyone. Treat everyone the way you’d like to be treated, and treat the people you love better than that.”
[/QUOTE]

Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

28

[QUOTE=Myself]
If you define “jollies” as satisfying their male ego, a lust for power, wealth and/or status, then, yes. Women have been basically chattel for much of history, weren’t they, levdrakon? Look how long it took them to get the vote!

This site lists the 100 “most important women in history” and only 10 are heads of state and just three were aggressive empire builders. It’s the male who is famous for his aggression. “Girls just wanna have fun.” They’re more likely to form a consensus on goals, form a plan of action in committee and nurture participants along the way. That’s what DeeDee Myers’ book is all about…

[/QUOTE]

Which is why, I, as the only male on my work team, is the one who hears from every female the complaints they have about every other female. And why I’ve heard a whole lot of women say they would never want a woman boss & generally prefer to work around men.

I used to hold to the “Peaceful Nurturing Female>Big Bad Male” superstition till reality convinced me that women are just as evil & just as good as men are. They just haven’t enough power & opportunity through history to do all the damage they are capable of.

That said, I’m also a general believer in “Women and Children first”, and a man who would take a woman’s place in a lifeboat better have a damn good explanation.

29

I don’t think women or children have any more or less right to live than I do.

I’m an atheist, and generally an existentialist too. But if I were a deist, my story would be, “God gave me the extra strength to fight my way onto this raft to let me survive.”

30

[QUOTE=Boyo Jim]
I don’t think women or children have any more or less right to live than I do.

I’m an atheist, and generally an existentialist too. But if I were a deist, my story would be, “God gave me the extra strength to fight my way onto this raft to let me survive.”
[/QUOTE]

Now your moniker makes a little more sense. :wink:

31

Well, I’m a woman…but I’d like to say a few things about how genuine men ought to behave.

While it is certainly true that good male behavior is nothing more than good adult behavior, I do believe each gender in our culture has certain characteristic peccadilloes, not limited to only them but perhaps seen more frequently in them. So, in that spirit:

  1. When you’re having a bad day, do not do the bogus thing, and take it out on those around you who are meek or smaller. Your mate/little ones/pets love you, and they’re not expecting you to act phoney & pretend you’re not pissed off. But even in anger, it costs nothing to be kind.

  2. If she wants to try and fix it herself, let her. Try to refrain from chagrin. (at her doing it badly, OR at her doing it well.) Then, if she asks you to help, be gracious. You don’t have to let her use your tools, but it would be extra cool.

  3. Men get many automatic ego-strokes in our culture, whether they notice it or not. Women are judged largely on their appearance, much more than men. Please remember this, and maybe mention it to her when she does something you admire or are impressed by besides being cute.

Thank you.

32

[QUOTE=Myself]
Men have been running the world since the beginning, right? And look what we’ve done with it! One ego driven war after another. Rampant greed and cruelty. And toilette seats standing erect from one pole to the other.

Face it guys, women are the superior race and holding a door open, or putting them in the life boat is the least we Tarzans should do. CITE: “Why women should rule the world”

I only have one question, however:** How can you blame men for the sorry state of the world, if we were all raised by women**?
[/QUOTE]

Because men were involved in the raising of most of those kids. :wink:

I don’t go for the gender responsibility thing. You do what you can to help those who are in need and put your own life before or after others as the situation dictates. I don’t think anyone can honestly answer this question until they’re faced with the choice. We’d all like to think we’re heroes, I suppose, but obviously not everyone is, or it wouldn’t be considered such a special trait.

33

[QUOTE=FriarTed]
That said, I’m also a general believer in “Women and Children first”, and a man who would take a woman’s place in a lifeboat better have a damn good explanation.
[/QUOTE]

I’m a believer in “children first”, but I find the idea that a woman has a right to survival while a man needs a “reason” ridiculous.

34

[QUOTE=Myself]
If you define “jollies” as satisfying their male ego, a lust for power, wealth and/or status, then, yes. Women have been basically chattel for much of history, weren’t they, levdrakon? Look how long it took them to get the vote!<snip>

Did you misunderstand me, or did I misunderstand you?
[/QUOTE]
Well, which is it? Women are little more than breedable children who need to be protected and looked after as children. Or, they’re mature adults with all the rights and responsibilities that entails. Which is it? I’ll give up my seat on the lifeboat for a helpless child. I’m not sure why, but I guess it’s an instinct. If I give up my seat to to a woman, that means she’s on a par with a child. Now why on earth would I respect a woman’s equal rights when she’s basically a child?

Women have been little more than chattel throughout history? Well, look at this “women and children first” policy we have. We don’t give immature children equal rights nor entrust them with equal responsibility for good reasons, but we protect them as the helpless little beings they are.

So what are women? Helpless little beings or responsible adults?

Yeah, they got the vote when they demanded they be treated as adults.

35

A real man kills big bugs, on request, without casting shame upon the requesting woman.
Not because it’s his manly duty, because he can.
(Y’know, without shrieking.)

36

[QUOTE=Myself]
Men have been running the world since the beginning, right? And look what we’ve done with it! One ego driven war after another. Rampant greed and cruelty. And toilette seats standing erect from one pole to the other.

Face it guys, women are the superior race and holding a door open, or putting them in the life boat is the least we Tarzans should do. CITE: “Why women should rule the world”

[/QUOTE]

Right. Because a woman would never start a fight for no reason. :rolleyes:
And well there’s one way to settle the man/woman/child in the lifeboat thing. I’ll fight you for it!

37

I apparently wear the pants in my family, then.

38

As I understand it, the average woman got the vote a historical eyeblink after the average man got the vote. Throughout most of history, for most of the population, what sex you were had damn-all influence on how much voice you had in government.

We have long since passed the point when “Women and children first!” was the only way to keep the species alive. We have good obstetrics and excellent perinatal medicine. My great-grandfather was one of nine, three of whom didn’t make it out of single-figure ages. We would rightly throw up our hands in horror at a childhood mortality rate like that today.

We can comfortably maintain our present population levels on an average birthrate a tiny fraction over 2.00. If we had to suddenly replenish our numbers after some horrendous disaster - and if we had no other concerns than to breed as many children as possible - we could perfectly well do it in one generation with a mere half of our fertile females, if they were willing. From here on in, women are perfectly welcome in my book to take half the casualties in both industry and warfare. I’m not holding my breath, though. :slight_smile:

39

Listen, men. Yeah, you, too. Get over here.

If you ever, ever get crazy enough and stupid enough, God forbid, to kill your wife, have the decency not to kill her in front of the children. Better yet, blow out your own worthless brain instead of hers. And not :eek: in front of the children.

Huh. Went right to the deepest part, didn’t I? Almost all of you will never get that crazy or stupid, so I’ll back down to the more ordinary things. Keep your lawn mowed, okay?

40

Or better yet, put in landscaping that doesn’t need mowing. :smiley:

I’ve been puzzling how to respond to this thread, especially since Skald was kind enough to create it. How should men behave? “Men”, especially. As opposed to women. Or people in general. Or my transsexual friend who was a man and is now a woman. Or children.

When you say, “This is how a Man should behave”, I immediately have the image of muscles and strong, protective support. Of laying down one’s life for one’s family. Of struggle for the greater good. No doubt this has been helped by the influence of plenty of Heinlein novels, but it’s older than that.

But then there’s the whole ‘macho’ thing: hair-trigger response to any perceived slight, an instant readiness to fight and defend. Women as quasi-property: a woman is either associated with her father (or equivalent), or with her boyfriend/husband. This implies that women are unable to defend themselves, but must have a Man to defend them.

I don’t believe in this; to me it’s a cultural construct from one of several cultures, none of which are mine. But it’s the dark side of the first image. What both of these images leave out is the Other: ways of being that are outside either the stereotypical male or the stereotypical female.